Stealing/Pirating Software - Is It Right?

[Null Parameter]

Fitz: Null. I understand pirating for educational purposes. Never for professional, profit building purposes but if someone wants to get a decent chance to determine if its something thye may want to get in college, let em do it
Null: I understand WHY people do it, in some cases, but that doesn't make it right, in any sense.
Fitz: true
Null: There's numerous free programs available that would give you a good idea if you'd want the end product, and most times companies like Adobe have free trials available, so wanting to see what the product is to gauge interest is a bullshit excuse.
Fitz: 30 days is no where near enough to learn Adobe though
Fitz: I started with that
Fitz: but then I had to get the torrent. But I plan on buying it now during college with the 80% discount
Null: There's a difference between learning it and gauging interest. In 30 days you can see HOW it works. In any time besides that you can browse the internet for any number of example of what it is capable of. And that's all you should need to know to gauge buying interest. Beyond that, it's just learning, which you can do once you've bought it.

What are your thoughts on the subject?
Is it right to "steal" software? If so, under what circumstances, and why?

[Boston]

Hmm. Well I normally only use torrents or whatever to find soundtrack for a particular movie (original scores, not stuff like Lil Wayne...). I rarely get programs or anything so idk. I suppose it is 'wrong', but for what I do I would say it is not a big deal - considering I watch a ton of movies and fall in love with the soundtracks. No way I am gonna spend $6-15 per movie soundtrack...

[DIRT JOCKEY]

I think music should be free to begin with, often enough if I like an album I will go out and buy it just to 'support' them so I can hear more in the future even if I already downloaded it.

Same goes for movies

As far as software is concerned I think it should also be free, however there should be royalties, for example every song you produce in FL studios should be subject to tax should it produce enough revenue. Photoshop as well, if you produce a logo and the company does well for itself, I believe adobe should be entitled to a small cut. Of course this would have a cap so that software manufactures cant rape small businesses. But thats how I feel on this subject.

[RPAL]

I just have that feeling that if i go and buy a $1,000 software, and 90% of the people that have that software got it pirated, that i will feel like a smuck.

[Fenian Bhoy]

Is it right? Of course it's not but millions of people still do it.

[Time Glitch]

I think that the reason piracy exists in the first place is because the software is so damned expensive. I mean I get that Adobe is going for a VERY small market here, and they have to jack the prices up for the most part...But over $500, maybe even running into the $900 range for software? Give me a break. There are a lot of small movie makers out there these days who could never pay for that if they wanted to. Some don't.

And thats where piracy comes in.

Look at it from a small guy's perspective: "Okay I could shell out a thousand bucks for software I'll use rarely, or take a small risk and get it for free. Gee I wonder which I should do..."

If software developers made their software cheaper for single users, then we would see a drastic drop in piracy. I'd rather shell out 70 bucks for Photoshop CS4 than risk even downloading a keygen for CS2 or 1. I'm sure a lot of pirates feel the same way.

Of course, you'll always have people who just torrent shit because they can, but a lot of people in the middle would switch to legal purchases if the companies made it available to them. Unfortunately, they try to by dumbing down their products with Adobe ImageReady and shit like that.

WE DON'T WANT YOUR WATERED-DOWN CRAP, ADOBE/MS/SONY. We want the products professionals use so we can do our best. But to do that, we have to pirate. And it sucks.

So while piracy is wrong, on principal, the fact that the companies price these things so high is an outrage.

Now, pirating music, movies, and games is different. Music is okay as long as there isn't re-selling going on. Honestly, most groups lose money on albums and songs anyway. They make their money on tour and through marketing products. The piracy is actually free promotion.

Games and Movies, though, are again, a different story. Old movies that you could get for 2 bucks at a bargain bin? Hell yeah, torrent that shit. A really good movie that just came out? Um, go buy it you cheap bastard.

Games are a no-no in my book, unless they're very old. Game developers work very hard, and that is stealing money from really creative people, not a faceless corporation. I buy all my games, to support the industry because it's already starting to lose money. I don't want to see the games industry go down, and that's why I buy instead of pirate.

Plus, you get to play online n' stuff. Pretty good tradeoff =P

[MNM1245]

If I was using the software for profit I would buy it. I use my photoshop and other CS4 programs occasionally for personal use. I never make money off it and I'm a 15 year old kid. I'm not going to waste a good few weeks pay on one program that I use every once in a while. That's why I torrented PS and other Adobe programs. Now if I did want to try making a profit off the stuff I would go and buy it for real. Right now though I'm just a kid using it for fun.

Like Time Glitch said though the reason people pirate most programs is because they're so expensive and people just can't afford it.

[Nulls Wife]

Unless you are stealing food to feed your starving family after you have exhausted all other options, there is no excuse for stealing.

The world we live in now thinks they are entitled to everything. They feel like they need to be keeping up with those around them even if they can't afford it. I am honestly scared to raise my child in this world.

I am sorry but just because something it outrageously priced and "everyone is doing it" doesn't mean it is right for you to steal it too.

You should be able to be proud of your accomplishments and making a kick ass logo from stolen software is not an accomplishment. The world owes you nothing and you should learn that now. No one has a right to take things that are not yours to take.

Grow up and buy your own stuff, plain and simple.

/mom rant over :)

[Fenian Bhoy]

Holly, no one in this thread said it was ok to pirate software. Heck everyone know's it isn't but somehow people keep doing it, me included.

[Sir Shazmanoid]

I think it's very wrong. In fact I get somewhat annoyed at people who do it, especially if they go around bragging about it or whatever. But the sad truth is that so many people are doing it, it doesn't really feel wrong to most people.

[Null Parameter]

Games are a no-no in my book, unless they're very old. Game developers work very hard, and that is stealing money from really creative people, not a faceless corporation. I buy all my games, to support the industry because it's already starting to lose money. I don't want to see the games industry go down, and that's why I buy instead of pirate.
I found this part very interesting. So just because a company is big, it makes all the small teams that make up the larger giant obsolete and all of their hard work is useless?

I work for IBM, or what you would call "a faceless corporation". That doesn't make me, or my team, any less creative or hard working. Trust me, we work very hard, and we have some of the most creative, brilliant minds around.

I think your view on how big businesses are actually run is very skewed, possibly in order to better support your ideas on the matter.

[Prod]

In my opinion music should be free anyway. I think a system where you can download any music for free, and then choose to donate after listening to it would be much better than the current system. At the moment most bands get their money from live events anyway. It would be technically busking, and bring everyone to the same level. That's my view on music anyway.

For games i would much prefer to have the physical disk bought from the shop because, well i don't know. Sure you have to pay £30-£40 but i think it's worth it. So i very rarely pirate games.

As far as software goes i agree with Time Glitch. If the software is relatively cheap (under £50) i'll pay for it. But for things like photoshop i just can't afford. I hardly use it, and it's not as if i'm getting money from it. I usually get (legally) free things if i can. Download.com is great for free software which was intended to be free.

In the end it isn't alright if you can afford it, but reducing the price and actually making purchasing things more convenient will dramatically slow down piracy. For example in the UK it's difficult to get a credit or debit card until you're 18 so i can't buy anything online, even if i want to. I have to use my dads credit card and pay him back (he's an arse so most of the time he doesn't anyway, despite his salary). So to save the bother download a keygen, or borrow it from a friend.

There will always be pirating though won't there?

[Nulls Wife]

Holly, no one in this thread said it was ok to pirate software. Heck everyone know's it isn't but somehow people keep doing it, me included.

If it is not ok in your book, they why do it? I am sorry but your post is horribly flawed.

I think it's very wrong. In fact I get somewhat annoyed at people who do it, especially if they go around bragging about it or whatever. But the sad truth is that so many people are doing it, it doesn't really feel wrong to most people.

Exactly! You said my point a lot better. Since 'everyone is doing it' then no one feels like they are doing anything wrong.

[Zak]

I do understand that piracy is wrong. I do feel bad for the people who go and design these awesome programs. I refuse to pirate music and I also refuse to pirate games (unless it's like Sim City 1 from what ever time ago, like 30 years ago). However, I do have the CS4 Master Collection. No, it's not that I think they deserve it for their prices or anything. They have a have a very special market which entitles them to meet market price. The only issue is that I simply don't have $2800 to go buy a program I will rarely use. My only purpose is to learn it and maybe get some experience with these programs before I may go do some work with it in college. Then, if I discover I'm good with the product, I'll get a college discount and maybe start doing some professional stuff. I know Null said he doesn't get the "It's ok because I'll pay for it later thing" and I truly understand his standpoint, but the fact of the matter is is that I'm just some stupid 17 year old kid making Halo videos out of his Mom's basement right now. I'm educating myself with the software and, if impressed, will go buy the software to possibly raise some extra cash in my college years.

[Fenian Bhoy]

If it is not ok in your book, they why do it? I am sorry but your post is horribly flawed.

It is wrong but I do it anyway, it's my choice. Better getting a song for free that buying it for £1.50 on iTunes. Fuck that.

[Zak]

It is wrong but I do it anyway, it's my choice. Better getting a song for free that buying it for £1.50 on iTunes. Fuck that.
Fenian, that isn't right at all. no matter what, pirating whether it's you, me or anyone else is wrong. But really man, 1.50 for a song? I know you can afford that. Or even better go to one of those sites that you pay 20 bucks a month and get unlimited downloads (The legal one's that is). Then at least you could get 1000 songs for 20 bucks.

[Fenian Bhoy]

Honestly I stopped DLing "illegal" music awhile ago. If I find some more songs I like I'll go download them again.

[DeathsFriend22]

Fenian, that isn't right at all. no matter what, pirating whether it's you, me or anyone else is wrong. But really man, 1.50 for a song? I know you can afford that. Or even better go to one of those sites that you pay 20 bucks a month and get unlimited downloads (The legal one's that is). Then at least you could get 1000 songs for 20 bucks.

I don't think you understand, Zak. You see, he used the Euros sign, and 1.50 Euros is about $2 USD. I can understand his unhappiness with the cost of itunes songs.

Further, I don't have the means to pay for anything online. Therefore, if I want just one or two particular songs from a band, why should I have to go out and buy an entire CD ($20 USD) for those two? It's much more efficient in both time and money to pirate that shit.

As for major things like photoshop, I don't use those things. Not that I don't want to, it's because I'm not going to spend over $1000 on something I'll play with for a while and then never use. Everyone else is right; If the dumbfucks at Adobe would cut their prices to a resonable amount (maybe $100) they would have a massive influx of customers and a drastic decrease in pirating.

[Fenian Bhoy]

That isn't the euros sign DF... That's the Pound sign...

[DeathsFriend22]

holy fuck...so it's the equivalent of $2.30 USD.

[Wolves]

I currently support piracy and really agree with time glitch. I'd like to use adobe as an example. I bought my adobe PS for 649.99 legally, and to be honest, it is not worth the money. I don't understand how corporations can charge 700 dollars and 1000 dollars for one program. I now pirate material because I think its unfair how companies can charge so much for something so small. As time glitch said, most people would rather pay the money rather then get a torrent or pirate it, but the prices are to high.

Most people cannot afford prices like that on their own especially now in our economic trouble, but the prices are not being dropped. A great example is machinima directors. The best software can really help make videos amazing and have the best effect and quality, but is that really worth 999.99 dollars or 600 dollars for the software? Lets not forget the combined costs of a capture card/needed equipment. The best way out of that, while getting the best results is to get a crack/keygen/torrent.

If prices were lowered to be under 100 dollars piracy would DRAMATICALLY drop because then buyers would be willing to pay for the quality you get for 100 dollars. No program has enough quality to be worth 999 dollars. Plus then corporations milk there current buyers for money, buy making upgrades to the products that cost hundreds of dollars for small changes. Its not right.

So you tell me witch is worse?
Big million dollar companies who's products are extremely overpriced?
Or Pirating those overpriced programs for free?

Piracy is not wrong, Ridiculous prices are.
Unless you are stealing food to feed your starving family after you have exhausted all other options, there is no excuse for stealing.

The world we live in now thinks they are entitled to everything. They feel like they need to be keeping up with those around them even if they can't afford it. I am honestly scared to raise my child in this world.

I am sorry but just because something it outrageously priced and "everyone is doing it" doesn't mean it is right for you to steal it too.

You should be able to be proud of your accomplishments and making a kick ass logo from stolen software is not an accomplishment. The world owes you nothing and you should learn that now. No one has a right to take things that are not yours to take.

Grow up and buy your own stuff, plain and simple.

/mom rant over :)
I have to argue with this, I agree that stealing is not right, but if your stealing from a multi-million dollar corporation, then its understandable.
I do NOT support stealing, but this isn't stealing.
This is piracy.

[Null Parameter]

I do understand that piracy is wrong. I do feel bad for the people who go and design these awesome programs. I refuse to pirate music and I also refuse to pirate games (unless it's like Sim City 1 from what ever time ago, like 30 years ago). However, I do have the CS4 Master Collection. No, it's not that I think they deserve it for their prices or anything. They have a have a very special market which entitles them to meet market price. The only issue is that I simply don't have $2800 to go buy a program I will rarely use. My only purpose is to learn it and maybe get some experience with these programs before I may go do some work with it in college. Then, if I discover I'm good with the product, I'll get a college discount and maybe start doing some professional stuff. I know Null said he doesn't get the "It's ok because I'll pay for it later thing" and I truly understand his standpoint, but the fact of the matter is is that I'm just some stupid 17 year old kid making Halo videos out of his Mom's basement right now. I'm educating myself with the software and, if impressed, will go buy the software to possibly raise some extra cash in my college years.So, you're stealing it now, for the personal gain of the extra time it takes to gain the applicable knowledge on the subject, and then, once you've learned it all and decide to profit from it, you'll finally decide to pay for it. Yes, only pay for something when you're going to make money off of it, that sounds fair.

As for major things like photoshop, I don't use those things. Not that I don't want to, it's because I'm not going to spend over $1000 on something I'll play with for a while and then never use. Everyone else is right; If the dumbfucks at Adobe would cut their prices to a resonable amount (maybe $100) they would have a massive influx of customers and a drastic decrease in pirating.
They chose to have people pay that much for many reasons.


The software is actually worth that much, based on how much work has gone into it.
They need to charge that much to make up costs.
Large companies with entire teams of artists pay that much, per license, because it's worth it. So knocking down the price to 10% of it's current cost wouldn't help their cause.
Despite what you say here, the influx of people buying $100 software vs $800 software won't cover the difference, because most people will still say that $100 software is too much.


I currently support piracy and really agree with time glitch. I'd like to use adobe as an example. I bought my adobe PS for 649.99 legally, and to be honest, it is not worth the money. I don't understand how corporations can charge 700 dollars and 1000 dollars for one program. I now pirate material because I think its unfair how companies can charge so much for something so small. As time glitch said, most people would rather pay the money rather then get a torrent or pirate it, but the prices are to high.

Most people cannot afford prices like that on their own especially now in our economic trouble, but the prices are not being dropped. A great example is machinima directors. The best software can really help make videos amazing and have the best effect and quality, but is that really worth 999.99 dollars or 600 dollars for the software? Lets not forget the combined costs of a capture card/needed equipment. The best way out of that, while getting the best results is to get a crack/keygen/torrent.They charge that much, because, per the reasons listed above, it isn't meant for most people. For a large graphics oriented business, the software is worth that much, and that is their intended market.

If prices were lowered to be under 100 dollars piracy would DRAMATICALLY drop because then buyers would be willing to pay for the quality you get for 100 dollars. No program has enough quality to be worth 999 dollars. Plus then corporations milk there current buyers for money, buy making upgrades to the products that cost hundreds of dollars for small changes. Its not right.
Again, no program has enough quality to be worth $999 to the average consumer, but that's not their market. If prices were lowered to $100, that would kill the profits from their main market, the mass consuming businesses. Yeah, it might bring in some regular people, but not enough to make up for the money they'd lose from the large companies.

Piracy is not wrong, Ridiculous prices are.

I have to argue with this, I agree that stealing is not right, but if your stealing from a multi-million dollar corporation, then its understandable.
I do NOT support stealing, but this isn't stealing.
This is piracy.steal
/stil/ verb, stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force
Whether you want to admit it or not, you are taking and using somebody else's property without their permission. They have the software copyrighted, you are violating that copyright by evading the license, which is stealing.

And as I pointed out to Time Glitch, you really have to understand a big company before you can say that it is okay to steal from them. They aren't faceless giants, they're groups of people doing their jobs, and doing them well. They don't overprice things to screw people over, they price them according to the effort that goes into them and the market at hand.




To Everybody, if you don't like the price of their software, there are plenty of alternatives, which is what our free market is all about. Competition. Use one of the many available free programs. And don't say that you don't want to use those, because they don't offer all the same features and usability, because that's the point; they can charge the big bucks for their program because it's the best, and they've done the hard work to make it the best.

[Octopocalypse]

Well my name is Pirates for a reason (not really, just a coincidence)

I torrent music frequently, because iTunes is expensive, and I'm lazy to go out and get a CD (and alot that I listen to isn't even available anywhere but mail order).

Programs I've torrented: crossover. Reason: I'm not paying $30 to run games on a mac I already bought for PC.

I don't really care about torrenting PS and all that, because honestly, where adobe makes almost all their money is people who buy it in stock. i.e. Schools, businesses, and thats it. Alot of schools just give out copies of it to their students (I got PS and AI from my school), and I know thats where alot of people get it. I know if people that torrented it bought it, adobe would make alot more, but when compared tothe amount of schools that pay for it, its barely anything

[Soren515]

Now, pirating music, movies, and games is different. Music is okay as long as there isn't re-selling going on. Honestly, most groups lose money on albums and songs anyway. They make their money on tour and through marketing products. The piracy is actually free promotion.

In my opinion music should be free anyway. I think a system where you can download any music for free, and then choose to donate after listening to it would be much better than the current system. At the moment most bands get their money from live events anyway. It would be technically busking, and bring everyone to the same level. That's my view on music anyway.


I have no opinion on this but I thought I should point this out for the arguments sake. Bands and Music artist make their money by albums. The only reason they are allowed to tour is to promote the album they just released. Tours are usually just a big hole that record companies throw money into.

[Nulls Wife]

I have to argue with this, I agree that stealing is not right, but if your stealing from a multi-million dollar corporation, then its understandable.
I do NOT support stealing, but this isn't stealing.
This is piracy.

I am going to debate this because of the sheer stupidity of it but all I have to say is if it wasn't for big corporations I wouldn't have a house or eat. Video game companies are multi million dollar companies and their programmers work crazy amount of hours and the fact that you don't view pirating their hard work is not stealing is utterly crazy. I hope that some day you don't have to depend on one of those multi million dollar corporations to put food on your table.

[MNM1245]

I found this part very interesting. So just because a company is big, it makes all the small teams that make up the larger giant obsolete and all of their hard work is useless?

I work for IBM, or what you would call "a faceless corporation". That doesn't make me, or my team, any less creative or hard working. Trust me, we work very hard, and we have some of the most creative, brilliant minds around.

I think your view on how big businesses are actually run is very skewed, possibly in order to better support your ideas on the matter.


Don't even try with Time. He thinks that every big company is a menace to society and anything that happens is bad. He thinks it's dumb if Halo Waypoint puts out Bungie Day info. He hates the fact that Bungie signed with Activision. Those are the two I can think of off the top of my head but Time is always bitching about this company and that on Twitter. I don't know why he thinks every decision any business makes is bad.

[Null Parameter]

[10:40:31 PM] XXX: ... I understand your point. But..... like I said, I'm learning the product to buy it in college. Most people learn to drive before buying a car right?
[10:41:01 PM] XXX: what's the point of getting a car and then trying to learn how to drive it once you've bought it
[10:41:12 PM] Null: But they learn by using somebody else's car, that they legally own. Which, in this metaphor, would be something like using school software to learn.
[10:41:14 PM] XXX: use someone elses until you have the experience and money to buy it
[10:41:36 PM] Null: You're arguing that Grand Theft Auto is the best way to learn how to drive.
[10:41:44 PM] XXX: lol
[10:41:53 PM] Null: Not the game, the crime. Just to clarify.
[10:41:58 PM] XXX: I know

[Wolves]

Don't even try with Time. He thinks that every big company is a menace to society and anything that happens is bad. He thinks it's dumb if Halo Waypoint puts out Bungie Day info. He hates the fact that Bungie signed with Activision. Those are the two I can think of off the top of my head but Time is always bitching about this company and that on Twitter. I don't know why he thinks every decision any business makes is bad.
I do not hate problems with big corporations. If anything I like them. The only thing I don't like is paying that much for one program. I understand they are trying to make it, "Exclusive" (if you will), for the bigger industries and photographers and film makers but again, as I said. The best software can do wonders for even small films. Take a look at this film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awcAlHQRbqQ
Or even this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDDadru1CdU
Would those videos have really been all that great without the great editing? You cannot get that kind of quality out of windows movie maker or another "Free" Editing program. If adobe would also "Cater" to the "small guy" then pirating would halt dramatically, as I said.

Again, no program has enough quality to be worth $999 to the average consumer, but that's not their market. If prices were lowered to $100, that would kill the profits from their main market, the mass consuming businesses. Yeah, it might bring in some regular people, but not enough to make up for the money they'd lose from the large companies.
I agree that their market is to the more big businesses, but I don't agree that they wouldn't make enough money if they lowered prices. That would bring in A LOT more regular people then some, and if anything I predict that either there business would either stay the same, or actually profit from the decision. Which would you rather have as a CEO. A small number of bigger directors pay a lot for a program, while a large number or smaller directors pirate it for free. Or would you rather have everyone paying the same price, while having the amount of piracy of your program seriously drop?

[Coyote1023]

So you are saying that they would sell 10 times the number of copies of their software if they lowered the price? You do realize that there are many more business than 1/10 of the population that would actually buy their products, right? Companies aren't stupid. The reason Adobe is successful is from their business decisions. There is no justification in lowering the price by 90%. The software is $1000 software for a reason, it is top of the line.

[Wolves]

So you are saying that they would sell 10 times the number of copies of their software if they lowered the price? You do realize that there are many more business than 1/10 of the population that would actually buy their products, right? Companies aren't stupid. The reason Adobe is successful is from their business decisions. There is no justification in lowering the price by 90%. The software is $1000 software for a reason, it is top of the line.

No I said that I predicted that one of two things would happen if you would read what I said
1: Their income would neither increase or decrease
2: More profits
NOWHERE did I say it would dramatically increase.
I agree more then 1/10 of the population would buy it, but it would go up if the prices were dropped. Don't assume that when I mean small I mean 1/10 of the population or when I mean profit I mean 10x more. Its unfair assume what I mean. And I agree it is top of the line, which is why people pirate the software. Because nothing else is as good as that product.

[Sodachampion]

I WOULD buy things....but the reality is that I cant afford much of the things I'm passionate about. Things like Photoshop dont come cheap. I'm all for companies getting what they are owed. In the future when I can pay for something I will..... of course my situation probably isn't the greatest argument.