Creation - A God Debate

[Zak]

Discussion Topic: Which of these ideas is correct, if any, and why do you feel the way you do? Please stick to the guidelines I have provided. Also, feel free to discuss aspects of all of the religions if you wish. That is why I have provided a simple background on the creation and the spread of each religion.


Please take some time to read some of this background I have collected on a few different religions.

The Creation of the Universe-A Compilation of Different Ideas and Beliefs on the Origin of the Universe
Index:
1) The Scientific Theory – The Big Bang
2) The Christian Creation Idea
3) The Muslim Creation Idea
4) The Hindu Creation Idea


Consider This!
I have my own beliefs on these subjects and they may show out in some areas. I have truly tried to be as non-bias as possible about the subject at hand. So please, as you read, which I hope you do, attempt to analyze my own bias and get around that. I hope you do not find much bias, just because I have whole heartedly tried to keep that out of my information, but I am sure it is in there somewhere.


READ FOR GOD'S SAKE!

Guide Lines for the Reader and Poster

1) First and foremost please do not flame others for their beliefs. People are not stupid for believing something else; it is simply just a matter of having different opinions on ideas. You wouldn’t make fun of someone for liking green when you like blue would you?
2) My second request is going to be to please think out your argument to the best of your knowledge and reasoning skills. They type of arguments I do not want to hear are listed below in the “Arguments I Do Not Want to Hear” section.
3) My next request is to consider that your beliefs are wrong and then formulate your argument. This doesn’t mean that you will be arguing against your original thoughts, but it will help you come out of the general, “I need to post this right now because I am right and they are wrong” statement. I don’t expect all people to have this initial attitude, but it doesn’t hurt to still do so.
4) This last plea to the reader and poster is to attempt to have an open mind. You may be set in your ways about your religion or belief, but that does not mean you can’t at least attempt to see the other side of the argument. No one will respect you or take your argument with as much respect as someone who has truly looked at both sides of an argument written upon their knowledge.




Arguments I Do Not Want to Hear
1) The Classic Argument
For many people, the first argument that is always thrown out is the phrase, “Well, what was before that? What was before God or the Big Bang?” The come back to that question is almost always the same question turned around. Example:
“Well if there is a God, where did he come from?”
“Well, if there was a Big Bang, where did all that matter come from?”
For this argument there really is no answer, no one can truly explain the origins of either of these arguments. Many people may believe they have the answer, being “It has always existed.” However, to say that either of these ideas was around for an infinite amount of time is a very weak statement and will not progress your argument very far.
2) Lack of Evidence
“It’s true because it’s in the Bible!” This is my own pet-peeve. I will try to write this passage without exposing too much of my own bias. Any Holy book is the compilation of many stories and ideas put together into a book. The fact that an idea was grabbed from that book and everyone believed it, is not good source for evidence. It is however a liable argument to say that these stories were perhaps collected from personal experiences and then passed down through generations until they were written.


The Scientific Theory – The Big Bang
The Big Bang is the cosmological theory holding that the universe originated approximately 20 billion years ago from a violent explosion of a very small agglomeration of matter of extremely high density and temperature. In lemans terms about 20 billion years ago, a very large amount of matter was condensed in a very small area. This extreme density caused this small conglomerate of matter caused a massive explosion, pushing matter in every direction possible.
Well What Now?
Well, now all of that matter came to merge together and create its own massive bodies. Sometimes, when enough matter was brought together and density reached high enough numbers and temperatures, electrons would break off of atoms and begin a chain reaction with the atoms around it. This is also known as fusion, the process in which all stars are kept alive.
Other matter didn’t reach a high enough density to create a star and it formed into small rocks and pebbles. These pebbles joined together to create boulders, which joined together to make large bodies. These Meteorites continued to join together to form small planets. Small planets ran into small planets, creating large planets. All pieces of rock that didn’t join with another large piece of rock were left to roam the Universe forever, or until they did hit something. These can still be seen in the Asteroid belt and the rings of Saturn.


Who the Hell Would Think of This?
The Big Bang Theory was theorized by Edward Hubble in 1929 while taking pictures of far away galaxies with his large mechanical telescope. The only difficulty Hubble had taking pictures however was collecting enough light to get a bright enough picture for the human eye to see. To do this, Hubble was forced to take up to 10 hour exposures, constantly tracking the galaxy with his massive telescope. As time passed, light particles would slowly collect, creating a brighter and brighter picture.
So why does any of this matter? It doesn’t really, because the real discovery came to Hubble when he realized that many of his pictures had a strange red tint to them. To go any farther, the phenomenon known as the Doppler Effect must be explained.
The Doppler Effect:
The Doppler Effect is the stretching and compressing of light waves/particles. If you are standing stationary and an object is moving away from you at a rate of 100 mph, The speed at which the light is reaching you is the Speed of Light minus the speed at which the object is moving away from you (in this case 100mph). If an object was moving towards you at 100 mph, the speed at which the light would be reaching you would be the Speed of Light plus 100mph. Why does any of this matter? Well, let’s say that an object is moving away from you now at 5000mph (About half the speed of light). The light that hits that object is hitting it less frequently because it is literally trying to catch up with the object. Thus, the light waves are hitting it less often and the light reflected is spread over a greater area.
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr337/Zachary80908/DopplerEffect.jpg
When this occurs, the stretched light makes objects look red, we call these objects “red-tinted.” It was because of this phenomenon that Hubble was able to develop the Big Bang Theory. Galaxies farther away were more red-tinted, suggesting that they were “running-away” from the Earth. The only explanation was a massive force that pushed matter in an outward direction in a large beginning explosion. It is all of this that led Edward Hubble to create the Big Bang Theory in 1929.



The Christian Creation Idea
In the beginning there was nothing.
The Christian Religion, as is many religions, is based on the idea that one God, ever existing, formed the Universe. The book of Genesis in the Bible tells the story of the week in which the Earth and the stars and heavens were made. In summary, Genesis 1:1-2:3 says this.

Day 1 – God created light and darkness. He called the light ‘Day’ and the dark ‘Night’.
Day 2 – God created Heaven which divided the waters of the Earth from the waters of the sky.
Day 3 – God creates dry land. He calls the land Earth and the collected waters Seas. Upon that dry land,
God placed grass and herb and fruit all bearing seed.
Day 4 – God created the Sun and the Moon. The Sun ruled the day and the moon ruled the night. They
could be used to determine seasons and day and year. He also made the stars.
Day 5 – God created living creatures including whales and birds. He gave them his blessing to multiply
and fill the earth.
Day 6 – God created Man and Woman to rule over the Earth and all of its inhabitants
Day 7 – God looks upon what he has made and blesses the 7th day.

Who the Hell Would Think of This?

Christianity in itself cannot effectively be traced to one single origin, but its influence can be traced back to the crucifixion and teachings of Jesus Christ. The entire story of Christianity’s spread over the world is a long and complicated one, far too long to explain in finite detail, but I will give a brief explanation.
Christianity didn’t really exist until the year 30 AD. Even after its arrival onto the world stage however, it did not become a recognizable or well known religion for many more years. After the death of Jesus, the twelve disciples set out to spread the word of Christianity. Persecution was soon to follow however, forcing the disciples to spread out and quickly spread the word over many areas. Emperor Constantine of the Roman Empire in the 11th century adopted Christianity as the state religion and threatened non-believers with terrible punishments. Some punishments included being boiled or burned alive or having bones crushed or pulled out of socket. This by itself made Christianity a major religion and promoted its growth.





The Muslim Creation Idea
NOTE: Before I start this I just want to say that the Quaran has three translations: Yusufali, Pickthal, and Shakir. I will be using the first translation, Yusufali. Nothing is entirely different between the translations besides wording.

Similar to other Holy Books, the Quaran (Koran) is a compilation of admonitions, promises, threats, and instructions assigned to the Arabs published after the death of the prophet Muhammed.
The Koran also has a similar creation idea to the Christian idea of the seven days of creation. However, the Muslim Idea is that the Universe was created in six “youm” (days). The term day is not a clear set of time however. Throughout the Koran, the word “youm” is used to express many different periods of time. At one point it is set as 50,000 years and at another point it is expressed as only 1000 years. The amount of time that a youm expresses is not declared when speaking of the creation of the Universe. For as much as anyone knows, the creation of the Universe could have been a few seconds to a million millennia.
What occurred during these six youm? What was Allah doing all of this time? Well, the Koran does not lay out what specifically happened each day of the creation like the Bible does in Christianity. The religion is much more open ended.
The area of the Koran that explains the creation of the planets and the stars is the story of a large explosion and the will of Allah bringing together the elements to from the planets and stars. At 21:30, the wording is this; “Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?” This suggests that all of the elements and material that created the Universe was at one point all condensed together until it burst apart and spread throughout the void. After this strange occurrence, Allah, “turned to the sky, and it had been smoke. He said to it and to the earth: ‘Come together, willingly or unwillingly.’ They said: ‘We come in willing obedience’.” This passage means that Allah took the remnants of the explosion and brought them together to create the Earth, the Stars, and the Planets.


The Hindu Creation Idea

The Hindu religion is a complicated and full of hundreds of Gods. The core idea of the Hindu Creation Idea is the idea of an infinite cycle of death and rebirth. The majority of this following information will be taken from the website , www.painsley.org.uk/re/signposts/y8/1-1creationandenvironment/c-hindu.html (http://www.painsley.org.uk/re/signposts/y8/1-1creationandenvironment/c-hindu.html).

Summary of Creation:
Like many religions, in the beginning, there was nothing. All that existed was a “vast dark ocean” that “washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of night.” Upon the water lay a cobra coiled in sleep. Within those coils was the Lord Vishnu. It was so dark and quite that dreams and motion were unheard of.
The dawn began to break, and the Lord Vishnu awoke. Then, from his naval blossomed a lotus flower which held Vishnu’s servant in its center, Brahma. Brahma waited for his master’s order and his master told him one. That order was “It is time to begin. Create the World.”
The waters began to fall and rise. Waves tossed the Lotus flower back and forth over the sea. Vishnu and the Serpent vanished to leave Brahma to his work. Brahma began to pick the three leaves of the lotus flower and spread them to create the heavens, the earth, and the sky.
At that point in creation, the Earth was bare but that would not last for long. Brahma began to work and “created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created the animals and the insects to live on the land. He made birds to fly in the air and many fish to swim in the sea. To all these creatures, he gave the senses of touch and smell. He gave them power to see, hear and move. “


What Do I Believe?


Personally due to the amount of religions I have studied and the large differences between them, I cannot truly believe in one religion or idea. After watching the 70’s television program “Cosmos” narrated by the insightful and respected astronomer Carl Sagan, I came to realize why the Big Bang Theory made sense. However, I am still not convinced of this theory. There are still too many unknowns. Where did the matter come from? Was it ever existing? What are the chances that intelligent beings would spring from the elements and after a few billion years? Do we have enough luck to acquire the random mutations that have made us who we are today. However, all of these questions are shrouded by the far less likely idea that the Universe was created by the simple command of “Let there be living beings,” or “come together willingly or unwillingly.” I require a steady and unfaltering answer. I fear I will never get this answer though.

So for the moment, my mind stays with science. I will not rule out the act of a God that has put everything into motion, but the idea of an all powerful and watching God is unacceptable in my mind.

[Zak]

This post is for the ideas and thoughts made by Members who have posted here.

Skittlemeister
I have to agree with the nothingness-universe idea, but I have invented my own intricate and possibly false yet possible theory, revolving around a series of universes being as a set of thin flat sheets with edges that return upon themselves, shooting you to the absolute opposite of that one universe, and having an infinite amount of edges and planes and areas and so forth, becoming a massive globe that is represented by one thin sheet with no actual proportions, being made up of decillions upon decillions upon decillions to an infinite amount of tiny strands of absolute energy, vibrating and vibrating strands and particles around it, creating matter (a play off of the M-theory).

As one universe is created, so are an infinite possible universes that entertain the same area that our current universe occupies, becoming an infinitessimal multiverse with no literal end or beginning, or way to pass over to each other. Universes can pop out of existence, but there is never less than an infinite amount of universes available to be present, each containing one of the infinite possibilities of being.

Now, the way I believe it (by the way, please know this is all a theory I have invented, as previously stated) is that our universe and all other possible and existing universes do not actually exist, being a part of nothing and in fact are nothing, but we perceive it to be true and thus is real, even though it, and we, aren't.

They occupy no space, yet occupy all space, sort of like a religious viewpoint of the Creator, how He stretches everywhere and nowhere. Well, this could be true, but I believe it in a materialistic sense.

Now, our universe consists of particles, which make up gases, liquids, and solids, and sometimes plasma, less common upon our terrestrial planet of "Earth." Gases are the most abundant in the universe, creating stars and galaxies and planets and solar systems and other such oddities. In between those spaces is nothingness, but it is a tangible energy, called dark energy and dark matter. This is an already invented theory which I add to mine, and I won't go into detail.

Now, how was it created? It wasn't, in my belief. It simply is, will be, and won't stop being, while actually not existing. The truth is is that it is a falsity while being a truth, a paradox, if you will, with no true emotion or rationality behind it. I don't take a religious viewpoint on it, but this is my thinking. It wasn't created by a power or being of supreme authority, but just acted upon itself.

In the beginning, which was actually just a period in the never-ending or beginning multitude of numbers making up time, there was simply nothing, which was there because our universe repeats itself, over and over again, as does each of the previously stated universes, over and over again, not having an end or beginning. This nothingness was an absolute extinction, probably caused by some mixture of galaxies and stretching of the limits of existence, resulting in a ridiculously unthinkable cataclysm, simply ending possibility, and resulting in nothingness.

Since you can't actually have "nothing," this resulted in nothing conglomerating into a mass of energy, which imploded and expanded to become what we call stars and gasses, which in turn create their own stars and burn themselves out. This is basically the Big Bang Theory. These stars imploded upon themselves, resulting in more and more, but pushing themselves further apart, resulting in clusters and galaxies and clouds, resulting in a universe. This took the course of trillions of years, not billions, since that is too short of a time.

All of these impossible quirks of science and space eventually took the right course and resulted in creating our galaxy, which created our solar system, which created our Earth, which created us. Eventually, on the never-ending timeline of nothing, our universe will once again implode upon itself due to its massive amount of expansion and result in an additional restart of itself, becoming one more in the infinite amount of times it will do so. There is no set time for when this will happen, because each restart adds or subtracts one or multiple or infinite necessary things to make it the same as last time.

The same is with each universe, despite the extremely infinite possibilities that occur with each. This gives them fluctuating timelines, such as ours, yet not the same, as there SHALL be something different, causing something different, causing something different, etc. We don't notice this happening, because it is a separate existence which simply just doesn't affect our own while still happening in the same area.

And those are my thoughts on this matter.

[DeathsFriend22]

God began the Big Bang, thus creating the universe.

/thread.

[Zak]

What made the gases that created the Big Bang?
Did you even read the Thread?

Arguments I Do Not Want to Hear
1) The Classic Argument
For many people, the first argument that is always thrown out is the phrase, “Well, what was before that? What was before God or the Big Bang?” The come back to that question is almost always the same question turned around. Example:
“Well if there is a God, where did he come from?”
“Well, if there was a Big Bang, where did all that matter come from?”
For this argument there really is no answer, no one can truly explain the origins of either of these arguments. Many people may believe they have the answer, being “It has always existed.” However, to say that either of these ideas was around for an infinite amount of time is a very weak statement and will not progress your argument very far.

[Zak]

God began the Big Bang, thus creating the universe.

/thread.

Please Read the Regulations to the Debate. I guess this is an ok post but you have not progressed your idea anywhere.
2) My second request is going to be to please think out your argument to the best of your knowledge and reasoning skills. They type of arguments I do not want to hear are listed below in the “Arguments I Do Not Want to Hear” section.

[DeathsFriend22]

sigh...

Assuming that before the Big Bang, there was absolutely nothing (And thus nothing to cause the Big Bang to occur), there has to be something outside of the physical realm to be the cause. God, being able to exist outside of the laws of the physical realm existed before time began - literally, forever.

Basically, matter needs a cause for an effect

God, not being made up of matter, and thus not bound by physical laws, doesn't need a cause.

God was the cause of the Big Bang.

[Skittlemeister]

I have to agree with the nothingness-universe idea, but I have invented my own intricate and possibly false yet possible theory, revolving around a series of universes being as a set of thin flat sheets with edges that return upon themselves, shooting you to the absolute opposite of that one universe, and having an infinite amount of edges and planes and areas and so forth, becoming a massive globe that is represented by one thin sheet with no actual proportions, being made up of decillions upon decillions upon decillions to an infinite amount of tiny strands of absolute energy, vibrating and vibrating strands and particles around it, creating matter (a play off of the M-theory).

As one universe is created, so are an infinite possible universes that entertain the same area that our current universe occupies, becoming an infinitessimal multiverse with no literal end or beginning, or way to pass over to each other. Universes can pop out of existence, but there is never less than an infinite amount of universes available to be present, each containing one of the infinite possibilities of being.

Now, the way I believe it (by the way, please know this is all a theory I have invented, as previously stated) is that our universe and all other possible and existing universes do not actually exist, being a part of nothing and in fact are nothing, but we perceive it to be true and thus is real, even though it, and we, aren't.

They occupy no space, yet occupy all space, sort of like a religious viewpoint of the Creator, how He stretches everywhere and nowhere. Well, this could be true, but I believe it in a materialistic sense.

Now, our universe consists of particles, which make up gases, liquids, and solids, and sometimes plasma, less common upon our terrestrial planet of "Earth." Gases are the most abundant in the universe, creating stars and galaxies and planets and solar systems and other such oddities. In between those spaces is nothingness, but it is a tangible energy, called dark energy and dark matter. This is an already invented theory which I add to mine, and I won't go into detail.

Now, how was it created? It wasn't, in my belief. It simply is, will be, and won't stop being, while actually not existing. The truth is is that it is a falsity while being a truth, a paradox, if you will, with no true emotion or rationality behind it. I don't take a religious viewpoint on it, but this is my thinking. It wasn't created by a power or being of supreme authority, but just acted upon itself.

In the beginning, which was actually just a period in the never-ending or beginning multitude of numbers making up time, there was simply nothing, which was there because our universe repeats itself, over and over again, as does each of the previously stated universes, over and over again, not having an end or beginning. This nothingness was an absolute extinction, probably caused by some mixture of galaxies and stretching of the limits of existence, resulting in a ridiculously unthinkable cataclysm, simply ending possibility, and resulting in nothingness.

Since you can't actually have "nothing," this resulted in nothing conglomerating into a mass of energy, which imploded and expanded to become what we call stars and gasses, which in turn create their own stars and burn themselves out. This is basically the Big Bang Theory. These stars imploded upon themselves, resulting in more and more, but pushing themselves further apart, resulting in clusters and galaxies and clouds, resulting in a universe. This took the course of trillions of years, not billions, since that is too short of a time.

All of these impossible quirks of science and space eventually took the right course and resulted in creating our galaxy, which created our solar system, which created our Earth, which created us. Eventually, on the never-ending timeline of nothing, our universe will once again implode upon itself due to its massive amount of expansion and result in an additional restart of itself, becoming one more in the infinite amount of times it will do so. There is no set time for when this will happen, because each restart adds or subtracts one or multiple or infinite necessary things to make it the same as last time.

The same is with each universe, despite the extremely infinite possibilities that occur with each. This gives them fluctuating timelines, such as ours, yet not the same, as there SHALL be something different, causing something different, causing something different, etc. We don't notice this happening, because it is a separate existence which simply just doesn't affect our own while still happening in the same area.

And those are my thoughts on this matter.

/thread.

[Zak]

Very Insightful Skittle. I like that idea very much and it is one that I have pondered myself. In general terms I believe you are kinda suggesting the "A hundred monkeys and a hundred type writers, given enough time would complete the works of Shakespear." Since there is an infinite amount of universes, one of them must result in our "existence".

May I add this to the "Member's Thoughts" Area?

[MultiLockOn]

Two things I wanted to point out. 1:Hope this doesn't go against your pointless rules, but the Big Bang Theory was already disproved a while ago....by atheists themselves. It's actually old news. 2: When you say that we can't say things like "How did the matter get there?" And how did God get there?", that's part of the debate. There's nothing wrong with it. For Christianity you can't say God got there, because he created time. Therefore, it's not although, he was there, and then he made time. Because that would be using time to paint a picture, it's not "This happened then this, then this". It's because it was created. That's the logic behind Christianity. Once the debate heats up I'll post my own bit on this, I wrote a paper on the bull crapitude of Islam on High School boosting my grade from a C to a whopping A because my teacher got a kick outa it.

[DeathsFriend22]

In general terms I believe you are kinda suggesting the "A hundred monkeys and a hundred type writers, given enough time would complete the works of Shakespear."

Unfortunately, the Internet has disproven this theory.

[Skittlemeister]

Very Insightful Skittle. I like that idea very much and it is one that I have pondered myself. In general terms I believe you are kinda suggesting the "A hundred monkeys and a hundred type writers, given enough time would complete the works of Shakespeare." Since there is an infinite amount of universes, one of them must result in our "existence".

May I add this to the "Member's Thoughts" Area?
Of course you may. I am glad you find it worthy of such positioning.

[Zak]

Two things I wanted to point out. 1:Hope this doesn't go against your pointless rules, but the Big Bang Theory was already disproved a while ago....by atheists themselves. It's actually old news. 2: When you say that we can't say things like "How did the matter get there?" And how did God get there?", that's part of the debate. There's nothing wrong with it. For Christianity you can't say God got there, because he created time. Therefore, it's not although, he was there, and then he made time. Because that would be using time to paint a picture, it's not "This happened then this, then this". It's because it was created. That's the logic behind Christianity. Once the debate heats up I'll post my own bit on this, I wrote a paper on the bull crapitude of Islam on High School boosting my grade from a C to a whopping A because my teacher got a kick outa it.

Well Multi, I cannot bash you for your beliefs, and I admire you for your devotion to your religion, but you are very closed minded. Your first argument is a very large generalization. Just because a group of atheists "disproved" the Big Bang Theory, that doesn't mean that now all atheists don't believe in it or that it is really "disproven." Hopefully you read my description of how the Big Bang Theory came about and the mechanics of it.

Now for your paper bashing Islam, I am very dissapointed. You are no better than the radical Islamists that chant "Death to the Infidels." Islam is a very peaceful and well thought out religion. I infact enjoyed my reading of the Koran much more than the bible. It is only the radical groups that every religion has that gives that religion a bad name. I'm dissapointed that your teacher is as closed-minded as you. Teaching staff should be allowed to have their opinions, but while teaching they should try to keep an open-mind.

[Boston]

What is it called if you believe in the Big Bang Theory, and God?

Are you "allowed" to believe in both?

[MultiLockOn]

Well Multi, I cannot bash you for your beliefs, and I admire you for your devotion to your religion, but you are very closed minded. Your first argument is a very large generalization. Just because a group of atheists "disproved" the Big Bang Theory, that doesn't mean that now all atheists don't believe in it or that it is really "disproven." Hopefully you read my description of how the Big Bang Theory came about and the mechanics of it.

Now for your paper bashing Islam, I am very dissapointed. You are no better than the radical Islamists that chant "Death to the Infidels." Islam is a very peaceful and well thought out religion. I infact enjoyed my reading of the Koran much more than the bible. It is only the radical groups that every religion has that gives that religion a bad name. I'm dissapointed that your teacher is as closed-minded as you. Teaching staff should be allowed to have their opinions, but while teaching they should try to keep an open-mind.
I'm not closed minded for pointing out a few things here and there, I was simply stating what I know. If anything, saying I'm close minded just sounds like you can't think of anything better to say, not saying that you don't :neutral: I read the entire thread twice through Zak. My point being about the Big Bang Theory, is that it has been disproven, and not by Christians. And that should say something. One of the most renounced atheists in the world was once in an interview and was asked if he believed in the Big Bang Theory in which he replied he didn't, and went off in his own tangent. I'm simply stating what I know, and I was being polite about it at that.

If I'm no better than Muslims then where would I place you? It's not a peaceful and well thought out religion, and that's what my paper is saying. There's countless contradictions throughout it, and I've already emailed my younger brother in California to find the paper and send it to me. Did you know 3% of Muslims are radical? Now, you might think, "well, that's not that much." If you take 3% of the current 2 Billion muslims in the world, well, there's plenty enough. If you enjoy reading the Koran more than the bible, I don't know what to say. That's being close minded, by your definition that is. My teacher isn't close minded, it was an incredibly written paper, showing voice, fact, and proving my point.

The fact is, the fact that you're accusing me of being close minded just means you are even more than you claim I am. I have no problem with you disagreeing as long as you give an argument to back it up that's legitamite. All you showed was calling me "close minded" which lead me to loose all respect for you that I once had.

[MultiLockOn]

What is it called if you believe in the Big Bang Theory, and God?

Are you "allowed" to believe in both?
Excuse the double, didn't see this till now. It depends how you look at it Boston. If you believe in the Big Bang Theory as an alternative to God's creation, as in "there's no such thing as God, this is how it started." Then no. If it's like "God created the Big Bang Theory, then why not. I personally don't believe that but I have nothing against it.

[InnerSandman13]

Sigh.....If God was an all knowing being, and not bound to the laws of physics and life, he would know who would be good and who would be evil. He could also make it so those people never existed. Now....let us say that William Golding's theory of man being cruel in it's natural state is true. Couldn't God have made it so people never existed?

:question:

[MultiLockOn]

Sigh.....If God was an all knowing being, and not bound to the laws of physics and life, he would know who would be good and who would be evil. He could also make it so those people never existed. Now....let us say that William Golding's theory of man being cruel in it's natural state is true. Couldn't God have made it so people never existed?

:question:
That's not very well thought out. God created them in the first place, to some degree, he made them how they are. If they were bad he'd just make them good. Besides, no ones personality is set, people can change.

[Nulls Wife]

It is only the radical groups that every religion has that gives that religion a bad name.

I completely agree with this comment!! I always feel like I am not defending my beliefs, but I have to trying to change what people "think" I believe. It is amazing that what radicals say is always remembered and passed on, but real beliefs and practices are quickly forgotten.

[InnerSandman13]

That's not very well thought out. God created them in the first place, to some degree, he made them how they are. If they were bad he'd just make them good. Besides, no ones personality is set, people can change.

There will always be people in the world who are naturally cruel and oppressive. It doesn't matter if people are good or evil; People in nature will always have some degree of cruelty in them. God knows this so create people?

[aMoeba]

according to multis logic lets assume the following holds no merit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

[MultiLockOn]

There will always be people in the world who are naturally cruel and oppressive. It doesn't matter if people are good or evil; People in nature will always have some degree of cruelty in them. God knows this so create people?
GOD CREATED SOME PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES TO START WITH. If you're talking in general sin well that dates back and has transformed into lust, blah blah. No one is born mean naturally, it's all a matter of circumstances people have been through, things people have said to them, experiences , so on.

[Zak]

I'm not closed minded for pointing out a few things here and there, I was simply stating what I know. If anything, saying I'm close minded just sounds like you can't think of anything better to say, not saying that you don't :neutral: I read the entire thread twice through Zak. My point being about the Big Bang Theory, is that it has been disproven, and not by Christians. And that should say something. One of the most renounced atheists in the world was once in an interview and was asked if he believed in the Big Bang Theory in which he replied he didn't, and went off in his own tangent. I'm simply stating what I know, and I was being polite about it at that.

If I'm no better than Muslims then where would I place you? It's not a peaceful and well thought out religion, and that's what my paper is saying. There's countless contradictions throughout it, and I've already emailed my younger brother in California to find the paper and send it to me. Did you know 3% of Muslims are radical? Now, you might think, "well, that's not that much." If you take 3% of the current 2 Billion muslims in the world, well, there's plenty enough. If you enjoy reading the Koran more than the bible, I don't know what to say. That's being close minded, by your definition that it. My teacher isn't close minded, it was an incredibly written paper, showing voice, fact, and proving my point.

The fact is, the fact that you're accusing me of being close minded just means you are even more than you claim I am. I have no problem with you disagreeing as long as you give an argument to back it up that's legitamite. All you showed was calling me "close minded" which lead me to loose all respect for you that I once had.

I suppose I was unfair. What I was really should have said was that The Big Bang Theory is not the only atheist idea. So I guess I cannot argue against your statement about the man who said it didn't exist. As for the Islam Religion, I am still a little upset that the generalization of a large religion. I suppose I could compare it to me (theoretically) saying that all kids on Xbox Live are morons. What you and I remember while playing on Xbox live is the stupid, loud, and cussing kids, even though there are many enjoyable people, such as yourself, to play with online. In order to be politically correct, I would write a paper on the basis that some people on Xbox Live are annoying, however the base level of people on live are very nice to talk and play with.

To sum everything up, I just think I would have rather you write a paper on the distinct radical group who read radical interpretations of the Koran. The other 97% should not be condemned for the 3% who screw everything up.

[MultiLockOn]

I suppose I was unfair. What I was really should have said was that The Big Bang Theory is not the only atheist idea. So I guess I cannot argue against your statement about the man who said it didn't exist. As for the Islam Religion, I am still a little upset that the generalization of a large religion. I suppose I could compare it to me (theoretically) saying that all kids on Xbox Live are morons. What you and I remember while playing on Xbox live is the stupid, loud, and cussing kids, even though there are many enjoyable people, such as yourself, to play with online. In order to be politically correct, I would write a paper on the basis that some people on Xbox Live are annoying, however the base level of people on live are very nice to talk and play with.

To sum everything up, I just think I would have rather you write a paper on the distinct radical group who read radical interpretations of the Koran. The other 97% should not be condemned for the 3% who screw everything up.
Thanks for not being a dick like I was :D Yeah, when you read the paper yourself you'll see that I'm specifically referring to the religion itself, I make almost no comment on the Islam Radicals. I point out, 1:Logic, 2:Contradictions, 3:Proof supporting the religion.

[Skittlemeister]

Sigh.....If God was an all knowing being, and not bound to the laws of physics and life, he would know who would be good and who would be evil. He could also make it so those people never existed. Now....let us say that William Golding's theory of man being cruel in it's natural state is true. Couldn't God have made it so people never existed?

:question:
What would be the point of not creating people, my good sir? Apparently (I am not very religious, so please do not berate me for getting something wrong) God created Man in his image, and Man is imperfect, allowing them to fluctuate their reasoning and change their values and thus become "good" or "evil," so that must mean God is imperfect in his own way.

Besides, what point would there be in having no bad in a world? If there is all law, then you would immediately spiral into a wave of boredom and peace. Add a bit of chaos in there and you at least have something to do, making the world a beautiful yet radically destructive place.

I don't really care for God creating people, since I am not an overly-religious person, but this logic stands fast in my mind.

[MultiLockOn]

What would be the point of not creating people, my good sir? Apparently (I am not very religious, so please do not berate me for getting something wrong) God created Man in his image, and Man is imperfect, allowing them to fluctuate their reasoning and change their values and thus become "good" or "evil," so that must mean God is imperfect in his own way.

Besides, what point would there be in having no bad in a world? If there is all law, then you would immediately spiral into a wave of boredom and peace. Add a bit of chaos in there and you at least have something to do, making the world a beautiful yet radically destructive place.

I don't really care for God creating people, since I am not an overly-religious person, but this logic stands fast in my mind.
Well put, if there was no evil, then there wouldn't be point to live here on Earth before eternity. Besides, you forget no ones perfect, by Sandman's logic no one should ever life on earth.

[aMoeba]

Well put, if there was no evil, then there wouldn't be point to live here on Earth before eternity. Besides, you forget no ones perfect, by Sandman's logic no one should ever life on earth.

So what was God's point then, in creating the Garden of Eden, which held Adam and Eve? Keep in mind that the Garden of Eden (or, the earth in its entirety) had no evil until the "fall of man" according to the Bible.

[MultiLockOn]

So what was God's point then, in creating the Garden of Eden, which held Adam and Eve? Keep in mind that the Garden of Eden (or, the earth in its entirety) had no evil until the "fall of man" according to the Bible.
Whether or not Satan caused Adam and Eve in that Garden, there would've been temptation, sin existed. It just hadn't happened yet. God is all knowing. I'm sure he would've known if Satan was in the friggin' garden.

[aMoeba]

Whether or not Satan caused Adam and Eve in that Garden, there would've been temptation, sin existed. It just hadn't happened yet. God is all knowing. I'm sure he would've known if Satan was in the friggin' garden.

You still said that if there were evil on earth, there would be no point to live. Regardless of whatever period of time they lived without evil, the time was in fact there. Also, sin did not originate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the actual source of sin is a mystery according to second thessalonians (don't ask me to cite my source and think that that's helping you).

[MultiLockOn]

You still said that if there were evil on earth, there would be no point to live. Regardless of whatever period of time they lived without evil, the time was in fact there. Also, sin did not originate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the actual source of sin is a mystery according to second thessalonians (don't ask me to cite my source and think that that's helping you).
I said if there wasn't evil on Earth there'd be no point.

[aMoeba]

I said if there wasn't evil on Earth there'd be no point.

And there wasn't evil before the fall of man, so what was the point in Adam and Eve being created before evil? Your point on evil not being there yet is moot, because either way its not there.

So you're saying "if there's no evil on earth there would be no point to being here before eternity" so I jest by saying "Adam and Eve were created before evil", at least according to the very thing you base your beliefs on.

[MultiLockOn]

And there wasn't evil before the fall of man, so what was the point in Adam and Eve being created before evil? Your point on evil not being there yet is moot, because either way its not there.

So you're saying "if there's no evil on earth there would be no point to being here before eternity" so I jest by saying "Adam and Eve were created before evil", at least according to the very thing you base your beliefs on.
The whole reason there's Earth, and God didn't just place us in heaven, is because it wouldn't be real "love". If you were created to love god and it's all you've ever done it's not real, it's almost robotic. That's why we're here. Because God wanted to give us a choice. Without evil there'd be no point because then we'd never have anything stopping us with a relationship with God, whereas now we have porn, violence, war, blah blah. I'm hoping this doesn't all go over your head, and I don't mean that offensively.

[InnerSandman13]

How can any one truly know what God is thinking? There is a motive for everything. Perhaps God knew that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit. Perhaps he placed the rule as a test. If there was no rule....what would've happened? Man....doesn't like to be chained to limits. There will always be the lust and the desire for freedom.

The whole reason there's Earth, and God didn't just place us in heaven, is because it wouldn't be real "love". If you were created to love god and it's all you've ever done it's not real, it's almost robotic. That's why we're here. Because God wanted to give us a choice. Without evil there'd be no point because then we'd never have anything stopping us with a relationship with God, whereas now we have porn, violence, war, blah blah. I'm hoping this doesn't all go over your head, and I don't mean that offensively.

So you're saying that it's alright to have some evil? Don't you want to have a good relation with God?



On a side note: If you expect me to give facts don't. I'm just voicing opinions to a debate that will never stop. Honestly, I don't give a f**k what you disrespect about my opinion.


Anyways: What if...God had a plan.....Once people made too many bad choices he would start the universe over? Perhaps this was his plan. To keep going over and over until a perfect universe was created. However....this plan will never work. Perfection in life is unobtainable. If God was all knowing he would know this would happen. In that case I would think of him as Roger from Lord of the Files (To those who don't know Roger was a sadist who did whatever he wanted). Perhaps God wants to see society fall and then they have to go back to the basic roots...which meant believing in God for miracles. If that is true then God can be considered in having human's cruel nature as well.


But can people consider God human?

[InnerSandman13]

Well put, if there was no evil, then there wouldn't be point to live here on Earth before eternity. Besides, you forget no ones perfect, by Sandman's logic no one should ever life on earth.

Hold up. When did I say there should be no life on Earth? And I didn't say mean, I said cruel. Cruelty comes in different ways. Whether it be you stating firmly what your beliefs are, or some other thing. We all have some form of cruelty. It just takes the right conditions to show it.

What would be the point of not creating people, my good sir? Apparently (I am not very religious, so please do not berate me for getting something wrong) God created Man in his image, and Man is imperfect, allowing them to fluctuate their reasoning and change their values and thus become "good" or "evil," so that must mean God is imperfect in his own way.

Besides, what point would there be in having no bad in a world? If there is all law, then you would immediately spiral into a wave of boredom and peace. Add a bit of chaos in there and you at least have something to do, making the world a beautiful yet radically destructive place.

I don't really care for God creating people, since I am not an overly-religious person, but this logic stands fast in my mind.

Perhaps God created people for the heck of it.

[Zak]

On a side note: If you expect me to give facts don't. I'm just voicing opinions to a debate that will never stop. Honestly, I don't give a f**k what you disrespect about my opinion.

Cool down dude, he mentioned that he didn't mean it offensively. Everyone's just voicing their opinions. No one will think less of you for them. I believe we can all understand eachother's viewpoints well enough not to flame one another.

[Zak]

Hold up. When did I say there should be no life on Earth? And I didn't say mean, I said cruel. Cruelty comes in different ways. Whether it be you stating firmly what your beliefs are, or some other thing. We all have some form of cruelty. It just takes the right conditions to show it.



Perhaps God created people for the heck of it.

I like to see God as a middle-aged white fat guy living in his mother's basement playing The Sims and we're the game. :thumbup:

[l33tmeerkatslol]

(You won't see me often in this thread.)
So you're saying that it's alright to have some evil? Don't you want to have a good relation with God?

Being perfect doesn't build a good relationship with God. You can fall down and sin one million times, but getting back up chasing after him will build that relationship. That's what strengthens it.

What if...God had a plan.....Once people made too many bad choices he would start the universe over? Perhaps this was his plan. To keep going over and over until a perfect universe was created. However....this plan will never work. Perfection in life is unobtainable. If God was all knowing he would know this would happen.

This reminds me of the story of Noah's Ark, which I'm sure I don't have to explain. But after God did that, he promised never to do something like that again.

[Vietazn101]

I like to see God as a middle-aged white fat guy living in his mother's basement playing The Sims and we're the game. :thumbup:


... I could see that...

[aMoeba]

The whole reason there's Earth, and God didn't just place us in heaven, is because it wouldn't be real "love". If you were created to love god and it's all you've ever done it's not real, it's almost robotic. That's why we're here. Because God wanted to give us a choice. Without evil there'd be no point because then we'd never have anything stopping us with a relationship with God, whereas now we have porn, violence, war, blah blah. I'm hoping this doesn't all go over your head, and I don't mean that offensively.

God wouldn't have to put us on earth to show us your so called "real" love. Why?

1. If God is omnipotent, he could show real love in heaven

2. Why is it that we had to be put on earth to make choices and actually choose to love God? How is it possible then, that Lucifer rebelled against God? Obviously, Lucifer chose to do so, and he also previously chose to obey God in heaven. Lucifer was an angel, as we all will be in heaven according to the Bible.

[MultiLockOn]

God wouldn't have to put us on earth to show us your so called "real" love. Why?

1. If God is omnipotent, he could show real love in heaven

2. Why is it that we had to be put on earth to make choices and actually choose to love God? How is it possible then, that Lucifer rebelled against God? Obviously, Lucifer chose to do so, and he also previously chose to obey God in heaven. Lucifer was an angel, as we all will be in heaven according to the Bible.
1:Like I said, if you were in heaven to start with, you wouldn't know anything but love, and it wouldn't even be considered love in that case.

2: Lucifer was an angel, not a person. He wasn't expected to fall. We're here to have a choice, and if you choose to love on your five seconds on this Earth you're rewarded with Heaven.

[DeathsFriend22]

WEll, I knida have my own theory on this whole "time of evil" debate going on here.

Perhaps ths universe is really Hell, we're all fallen angels who don't remember it, and God says if we're good we can come back. Satan, who hates God, wants us to be stuck here with him forever, and thus he and the others like him do their best to temp us into evil.

The reason Jesus came here is because we weren't doinitrite. He came down and said "Look guys, if you want to get back to Heaven, this is how." Then he sacrificed himself to give us a clean slate again.

/2 cents.

[aMoeba]

-snipped so I can type more-

1. Are you telling me that Luficer wanting to be higher than God is love? Answer yes and my point succeeds, answer no and your premise is void.

2. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I already made note of Lucifer being an angel. I'm also sure God didn't expect him to fall as well. The point of creating humanity is not so that God wanted people to love him. God, being omniscient, knew that we would rebel against him either way. Also God, being omnipotent, could have shielded off the tree of knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve. God could have killed the snake in the garden to prevent the temptation which led to the fall of man. God could have not created humanity in the first place, because its evident choices were already possible in Heaven. Had God actually created us to make a choice to love him, he would have made it impossible to make choices in Heaven (what with his omnipotence and all).

[DeathsFriend22]

-snipped so I can type more-

1. Are you telling me that Luficer wanting to be higher than God is love? Answer yes and my point succeeds, answer no and your premise is void.

2. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I already made note of Lucifer being an angel. I'm also sure God didn't expect him to fall as well. The point of creating humanity is not so that God wanted people to love him. God, being omniscient, knew that we would rebel against him either way. Also God, being omnipotent, could have shielded off the tree of knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve. God could have killed the snake in the garden to prevent the temptation which led to the fall of man. God could have not created humanity in the first place, because its evident choices were already possible in Heaven. Had God actually created us to make a choice to love him, he would have made it impossible to make choices in Heaven (what with his omnipotence and all).

See my theory on previous page.

[aMoeba]

Just to notify you Zak, the "Chistian creation idea" should be renamed to something more along the lines of a 7 day creation, probably using Yaweh (sp?) to differentiate between different types of God creation stories. Remember; creation is not essentially a Christian belief, its in the Torah, which was before Christianity, actually Judaism. I believe the Muslim's also believe in the Torah, but I'm not entirely sure. Just basically change it from Christian creation, as it is not inherently a Christian belief.

[Skittlemeister]

Where are my theory in "Member's Thoughts"?