Map Restrictions

[PsychoBucket]

Some of you may have noticed that I have been going through the maps (oldest - newest), and closing the ones that are no longer in a fileshare. During this process I noticed something. When people post several maps (usually when they first join), the maps seem to get less attention. I am guessing that this is because posting several maps pushes maps out of the 5 newest maps on the home page, and the "latest posts" in the "top 5 stats".

By posting multiple maps, it hurts the person who posted the maps along with the people who posted a map before that.

I know Restrictions are generally a bad thing, but I think I may be on to something here.

First I thought we should limit people to posting one map a day, but quickly realized that would be a bad idea. I think that would just scare off new members, and restrict people who want to post map packs. I also realized that as our member count grows the increased amount of maps will have the same effect as someone posting multiple maps.

Then I remembered the "Forge Hub: Lessons Learned" thread.

Wow Canadians, that's something I didn't even think about. I remember my three map posts there, none of them got more than 1.5 pages. Why? Because there were so many maps posted, they all just pushed and pushed, it drove me nuts.

I don't have a lot of experience with map posting on ForgeHub, but what you guys are saying happens will likely happen here in the future.

I don't have the numbers for ForgeHub, but XForgery members posted over 160 maps in the month of June. That averages out to around 5 per day, or about 1 every 5 hours. That's a fairly decent rate (by comparison, the Review Team managed about 80 maps in June).

That's up infinitely from last December when we were posting about 10 maps a month. And it's been steadily increasing.

Which is why it is imperative to have methods in place that ensure all the maps get noticed at some point, because eventually just being a new map won't we good enough. There'll be too many new maps.

My first response to posts like A Baaaaad Panda's post was very similar to Denominator's post. I think that many of Forgehub's problems are a direct result of them being so large, but what if we can prevent a problem before we get to large?

So what can fix/reduce the problem of maps going unnoticed? My solution is to give every map an equal time in the spotlight (homepage). Our current system works with a small community because each map was there for a decent amount of time, but that is changing.

Now there are two possible ways to do this (or at least two that I have thought of).

1) Make it so only 5 maps are posted a day, and there would be a waiting list for maps to be posted. People could submit their maps anytime, but it wouldn't be posted until their day(if that is even possible).

2) People can post a map anytime, but the 5 on the home page would only change every 24 hours. This is different from the first idea because the map would be posted as soon as it was submitted, so it could be discussed.

Wiggums' idea) What if we just had a sidebar that showed all the recent maps that are within 2 days old at random or something?

Everything has advantages and disadvantages.

Idea 1
Pros
- All of the new maps would not clog up the "latest posts", giving more attention to the 5 maps posted that day.
Cons-Only 5 maps could be posted -who knows how long the waiting list could be.
- It may confuse people looking for their map after submitting it. (could be helped with a message after submitting

Idea 2
Pros -
You can discuss your map as soon as you submit them
Cons
- There would be many more maps in the "recent posts" every day, reducing the amount of attention to each map.
- Your map may not be on the Home page until a while after it has been posted

Current System
Pros
- With a smaller community maps will stay on the home page for a decent amount of time
Cons
- We are at the point where maps stay on the home page for less then a day "averages out to around 5 per day, or about 1 every 5 hours."
-Depending on when you post you map, it could be much less time. For example the map "olympian" was off the home page in only 20 minutes!

Wiggums' Idea
Pros
-More maps would be on the Home page
-Maps would be on the Home page longer
Cons
- It could clutter the Home page
- With each additional map on the Home page, it will reduce the attention for the other maps.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Neither of these ideas are perfect, but I'm not sure how long our current system will work efficiently. If you have any suggestions to improve these ideas, or any alternatives please post them.

[MultiLockOn]

I honestly like the general idea, but not the way you presented it. Only five map posted a day, you've pointed out all the cons I can think of, huge confusion on that part. And as for idea two....you've also pointed out all the cons. I suggest, making a 5 hours restriction or so, on yourself posting maps, so that whether or not it's a map pack, you'd have to wait to allotted time prior posting another map. Or even a two day restriction wouldn't hurt. I say each member has to wait two days before posting another map.

[PsychoBucket]

I honestly like the general idea, but not the way you presented it. Only five map posted a day, you've pointed out all the cons I can think of, huge confusion on that part. And as for idea two....you've also pointed out all the cons.
Well, I was hoping to recieve suggestions to improve the "general idea". Maybe I should add a pros/cons of the current system.

I suggest, making a 5 hours restriction or so, on yourself posting maps, so that whether or not it's a map pack, you'd have to wait to allotted time prior posting another map. Or even a two day restriction wouldn't hurt. I say each member has to wait two days before posting another map.

People don't really post multiple maps all that much. People posting multiple maps is not the problem, it is just the first thing to show the problem. The problem is that as more maps are posted, each map will recieve less attention.

[wiggums]

What if we just had a sidebar that showed all the recent maps that are within 2 days old at random or something?

[MultiLockOn]

Well, I was hoping to recieve suggestions to improve the "general idea". Maybe I should add a pros/cons of the current system.



People don't really post multiple maps all that much. People posting multiple maps is not the problem, it is just the first thing to show the problem. The problem is that as more maps are posted, each map will recieve less attention.
Not true, to some extent what you are saying is true, however, a large portion of it is because of map packs, the A, the B, and the C for example, which were all posted today. In fact, there were two map packs posted today. How about a 12 hour restriction between all maps being posted?

[PsychoBucket]

What if we just had a sidebar that showed all the recent maps that are within 2 days old at random or something?
That is something to think about that. From what I can think of now the pros/cons of that would be
Pros
-More maps would be on the Home page
-Maps would be on the Home page longer
Cons
- It could clutter the Home page
- With each additional map on the Home page, it will reduce the attention for the other maps.

Maybe I will add that to the list.

Not true, to some extent what you are saying is true, however, a large portion of it is because of map packs, the A, the B, and the C for example, which were all posted today. In fact, there were two map packs posted today. How about a 12 hour restriction between all maps being posted?
That was a coincidence. I don't think that has happened before, but it just shows what could happen if we get more popular. We could get 6 maps from separate people in that amount of time. Like I said before, multiple map posts from one person is not the problem, it just is the first thing to show the problem.

"How about a 12 hour restriction between all maps being posted?"
- Please explain that better.
By all maps do you mean from everyone, so 2 per day?
Or do you mean all maps from one person?

[MultiLockOn]

"How about a 12 hour restriction between all maps being posted?"
- Please explain that better.
By all maps do you mean from everyone, so 2 per day?
Or do you mean all maps from one person?
No, I mean everyone. So yes, two new maps a day at most.

[PsychoBucket]

Well that is basically my "Idea 1", but with 2 instead of 5. I think that only have 2 a day would result in an even large backup of maps then 5 a day would.

[MultiLockOn]

Well that is basically my "Idea 1", but with 2 instead of 5. I think that only have 2 a day would result in an even large backup of maps then 5 a day would.
Like I said, it can be altered, I'm just throwing ideas out.

[Denominator]

Like I said in a different post somewhere about map posting rates, we posted a combined 161 new maps in June. That number has been steadily increasing since the dawn of XForgery, and I expect to get near 200 in July. At those rates, we're posting between 5 and 7 maps per day.

So let's say that for August, XForgery posts 7 maps per day, every day.

That means that by the end of the first week, 49 maps have been posted, but under system 1 only 35 have actually made it to the site. Map #50, which will be the first map posted on August 8th, will not be seen by the community until August 10th. It gets even worse later in the month, as the 210th map posted in August (the last one this month) won't actually see the site until September 12th. The problem will continue compounding, as there is never a chance for it to clear itself.

If we set more maps to the front page, then we have just moved the problem of overflow of maps to the front page. It doesn't really solve anything.

As for posting maps all at once or in map packs, the user is placing those restraints on themselves. If you post 5 maps at once, that means that each of your maps only has a 20% chance of being seen of the original chances. So you're reducing the likelihood of your maps being seen by flooding your own maps out of the system.

There is already a guarantee in place that every map will get seen and played - it's the Review Team. Yes, I realize that this is not full community involvement, but it ensures every map a fair shake and a bump at least once, and I promote maps that I find that are good and unrecognized whenever I can.

The other way to solve this is in the community itself. Instead of trying to restrict how many maps can be posted, the community needs to go out and download maps and play them. If every member downloads and plays one map for every one they post then every map should get played. It's up to the community to play more maps as more maps get posted. It's simply not fair to anyone to restrict how many maps can be posted because of other members posting maps first.

[GodlyPerfection]

That's what I was thinking Denom... the compounding amount of maps would be horrific...

You last idea gave me a cool idea. Well first of all, the removal of the map forum structure includes the underdog idea... I think part of the solution will be to encourage everyone to look at maps equally no matter when they are posted... so that will help a little bit.

This new idea... how bout when you post a map a person is sent a PM or directed to a splash screen that says "Now that you have submitted a map, maybe these maps would interest you as well..." and show like 3 maps or so randomly. You know... something like Netflix does... when you rate a video or watched a video they give you some suggestions on things you might want to check out... I think it would help quite a bit and make this site a more give and take rather than just more centered around the take...

[Canadians360]

Whatever happened to the higher content slider that was in the beta style. That had more than five maps in it. Why not get that up and running? If your going to do one of these I would say do a flood control so that a person can create maybe one map every 2 hours or something. Im not sure how this would be done but also map packs can really knock a guy off the main page, is their a way to maybe not have map packs do that. I cant think of a way to do it myself I'm just saying if someone could think of something that may help a little.

[Evilution202]

AZN, I like your idea except for the fact that the maps would be picked randomly. What if they posted a race map and got 3 aesthetic maps. People probably wouldn't look at it, while if people got a racetrack then they would probably get noticed. I think the only way your idea would work is if it somehow knew what kind of maps you like but I doubt it could do that. Maybe it could show three random maps from the same section that your map was posted.(i. e. competetive).

[PsychoBucket]

So let's say that for August, XForgery posts 7 maps per day, every day.
That means that by the end of the first week, 49 maps have been posted, but under system 1 only 35 have actually made it to the site. Map #50, which will be the first map posted on August 8th, will not be seen by the community until August 10th. It gets even worse later in the month, as the 210th map posted in August (the last one this month) won't actually see the site until September 12th. The problem will continue compounding, as there is never a chance for it to clear itself.

If we set more maps to the front page, then we have just moved the problem of overflow of maps to the front page. It doesn't really solve anything.



Well what about my second idea? It doesn't involve the backup of posting maps like the first one or the over flow of maps from wiggums ideas.


The other way to solve this is in the community itself. Instead of trying to restrict how many maps can be posted, the community needs to go out and download maps and play them. If every member downloads and plays one map for every one they post then every map should get played. It's up to the community to play more maps as more maps get posted.

This is not really a solution because you could say the same thing no matter what way the system is set up.

[Denominator]

Well what about my second idea? It doesn't involve the backup of posting maps like the first one or the over flow of maps from wiggums ideas.

Then you have the same problem, except slightly different. Now your front page maps are going to end up being months old, claiming to be "new maps". So everyone that looks there is going to looking for a new map and getting one X number of days/weeks/months old.

Again, it will just get worse with time. Anything we do that puts a limit on something like this will just backlog further and get worse over time. A year from now, the front page will be showing maps posted 4 months ago. Maps posted in the summer of 2010 won't see the front page until winter. That's all assuming we stay constant with our map posting.

This is not really a solution because you could say the same thing no matter what way the system is set up.

No, but it is the best solution without putting restrictions on anything.

Whenever somebody complains that their map is being ignored, or nobody is posting on their map, the first thing I check is how much they've been looking at other maps. It isn't fair to expect people to go out of their way to play your map if you aren't willing to go out of yours to play theirs.

[Canadians360]

Is getting the beta map showing style going not possible then? Because from where I stand it is the perfect solution to this problem.

[Silver0range]

Hmmm. I think Canadians idea is a great one for not cluttering the front page; just have a slider feature added to the current latest maps section on the front page.

Other than that, there's not much we can really do except guide the community along as it goes. As the number of members increases, more maps are posted, but at the same time more members are able to view the maps. Even the most popular maps here often acquire less views than all the maps do at FH within 2 days, and the same thing can be said for posts (most of the time). Whether or not someone posts on a map has nothing to do with the attention it gains. So if we look at FH, the attention every map gains will steadily go up as we have more members. Increasing the quality of the attention, however, is just something we'll have to guide new members through via helpfulness.

[Null Parameter]

Is getting the beta map showing style going not possible then?
What the heck did you just say?! :confused:

[Canadians360]

What the heck did you just say?! :confused:

Its been in beta for a long time I was wondering if it was no longer being worked on. Im sorry if your still working on it. :scared: dont hurt me.

But if it is possible it is the perfect or at least best solution I see and should really get finished :thumbup:

[PsychoBucket]

Now your front page maps are going to end up being months old, claiming to be "new maps".
We could call them "Maps of the day" instead of "new maps"

Is getting the beta map showing style going not possible then? Because from where I stand it is the perfect solution to this problem.

I think it might help if it could be expanded to show 5 thumbnails on the bottom part (currently only 3.5). Most people will not take the time to scroll through all the maps there, so only having 3.5 thumnails show may hurt things more then help.

If it could be extended to 5 and add the map name under the thumbnail, I think it would be better then the current top 5 newest maps.

[Null Parameter]

Its been in beta for a long time I was wondering if it was no longer being worked on. Im sorry if your still working on it. :scared: dont hurt me.

But if it is possible it is the perfect or at least best solution I see and should really get finished :thumbup:
I'm assuming you are talking about the slideshow.

And no, that will never make it into the full site. It's buggy. Looks horrendous with images of varying sizes. Is way too big and takes up too much space on the frontpage. It's overly complicated code that isn't mine, and I'm not about to try and fix it. I can keep going. But in the end, no, it's not happening.

[PsychoBucket]

Hmmmm . . . What if we could add a section like the "Latest Posts" (name it "latest maps") it would be sorted by map post time instead of replies. That way the maps would at least stay on the main forum page for longer.

[Null Parameter]

Hmmmm . . . What if we could add a section like the "Latest Posts" (name it "latest maps") it would be sorted by map post time instead of replies. That way the maps would at least stay on the main forum page for longer.
The statistics isn't my code, and it can't very easily be edited to include this.
But even if it could, they wouldn't be any different than the Newest 5 on the Front Page.

[BabySmuggler]

How about this for map packs?

When a user submits a map they get a check box saying MAP PACK.
If they check the box they get a new set of options to fill out such as a representing picture for the whole pack. Once they complete this their map pack shows up on the front page as ******* Map Pack. If you click on that option it takes you to a page using the map search that specifies the User who posted the map packs name and the Tag words, "Map Pack."

That way map packs would show up as one post on the front page but if you clicked on that post you got to see all the maps in greater detail.

[PsychoBucket]

The statistics isn't my code, and it can't very easily be edited to include this.
But even if it could, they wouldn't be any different than the Newest 5 on the Front Page.
I think (not sure) that the most common way people get to a map thread, is when a map is on the home page or the "latest replies". So it would double the amount of time it was up there(10 maps). If you cant do the newest maps, maybe you can do "latest map replies". Most of the replies are on newer maps anyway. Would that be possible?

[Null Parameter]

How about this for map packs?

When a user submits a map they get a check box saying MAP PACK.
If they check the box they get a new set of options to fill out such as a representing picture for the whole pack. Once they complete this their map pack shows up on the front page as ******* Map Pack. If you click on that option it takes you to a page using the map search that specifies the User who posted the map packs name and the Tag words, "Map Pack."

That way map packs would show up as one post on the front page but if you clicked on that post you got to see all the maps in greater detail.While a great idea, it has come up before and was deemed basically impossible, especially the front page part. Things just don't work that way. Yes, technically everything on the front page could be customizable to that level, but not without a significant amount of work within several major parts of vBulletin.

I think (not sure) that the most common way people get to a map thread, is when a map is on the home page or the "latest replies". So it would double the amount of time it was up there(10 maps). If you cant do the newest maps, maybe you can do "latest map replies". Most of the replies are on newer maps anyway. Would that be possible?
Nope, the Statistics code is built to support a specified set of stats. The only possible way to get the Latest Maps/Map Replies there would be to replace the new posts part.

[Coyote1023]

Hmmmm . . . What if we could add a section like the "Latest Posts" (name it "latest maps") it would be sorted by map post time instead of replies. That way the maps would at least stay on the main forum page for longer.

WOAH (http://www.xforgery.com/forum/mapsearch.php)

^ if you didn't notice, that is a link. Just another function of the search engine...

[PsychoBucket]

WOAH (http://www.xforgery.com/forum/mapsearch.php)

^ if you didn't notice, that is a link. Just another function of the search engine...

Like I said before, the most common way people get to map threads are from the home page and the main forum page. I never said I didn't know how to use the map search . . .
The map search is great, but when maps are put directly in front of people without them having to do anything, the maps will get more view then them having to search for them.

[Coyote1023]

And what is the difference? If we ever moved to using the map search only, that would be the first thing they would see. Besides, I never had a problem keeping up with new maps on FH, at least in the categories I cared about...

I'm sorry but we are just overdoing this whole suggestion thing. I don't see a problem with the flooding of maps...

[PsychoBucket]

And what is the difference? If we ever moved to using the map search only, that would be the first thing they would see. Besides, I never had a problem keeping up with new maps on FH, at least in the categories I cared about...

Moving to map search only would not affect this at all. I was talking about the main forum page compared to the maps search, not the map forum compared to the map search. How much of this thread have you actually read? This thread is not about people keeping up with maps they care about. It is about maps going unnoticed.


I'm sorry but we are just overdoing this whole suggestion thing. I don't see a problem with the flooding of maps...
I hope you are talking about my suggestions and not all of the suggestion forum. We should always be striving to make xforgery a better place. Suggestions should always be encouraged, even if it is eventually decided that a suggestion is not best for XF. You should never look down upon someone giving a suggestion, even if you disagree with it.

[Coyote1023]

Moving to map search only would not affect this at all. I was talking about the main forum page compared to the maps search, not the map forum compared to the map search. How much of this thread have you actually read? This thread is not about people keeping up with maps they care about. It is about maps going unnoticed.

I have read this entire thread. You talk of how maps go unnoticed yet I scroll through the map search and every map older than a day has 75-125 views average. That isn't going ignored. If your map gets that many views it has been seen.

Your only allow 5 new maps a day idea would be terrible. We would get like a 200 map overflow, since I am assuming you are trying to get ready for when XF grows. The only idea here that I think could be okay is that limit of posting 1 map a day per user, but that would probably take some code and is more trouble than its worth...


I hope you are talking about my suggestions and not all of the suggestion forum. We should always be striving to make xforgery a better place. Suggestions should always be encouraged, even if it is eventually decided that a suggestion is not best for XF. You should never look down upon someone giving a suggestion, even if you disagree with it.

I am talking about many of the recent threads in the suggestion forum talking about how "unfair" XF is and how we need to fix and and get rid of biases and treat every map the same. I am sorry, but people here are a little naive, they believe that they can make a perfect society, but I'm sorry, it can't happen, it is human nature that you're trying to fix here.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o93/coyoteboy1023/communism.jpg

[PsychoBucket]

Like I said in a different post somewhere about map posting rates, we posted a combined 161 new maps in June. That number has been steadily increasing since the dawn of XForgery, and I expect to get near 200 in July. At those rates, we're posting between 5 and 7 maps per day.

So let's say that for August, XForgery posts 7 maps per day, every day.

That means that by the end of the first week, 49 maps have been posted, but under system 1 only 35 have actually made it to the site. Map #50, which will be the first map posted on August 8th, will not be seen by the community until August 10th. It gets even worse later in the month, as the 210th map posted in August (the last one this month) won't actually see the site until September 12th. The problem will continue compounding, as there is never a chance for it to clear itself.

What if we change the amount of time? For example
12 hours on the home page - 10 a day
8 hours on the home page - 15 a day
6 hours on the home page - 20 a day

Of course we would have to consider where the # of hours fall. 12-6am would not be a good time.


I am sorry, but people here are a little naive, they believe that they can make a perfect society, but I'm sorry, it can't happen, it is human nature that you're trying to fix here.

I personally think it is better to be a little naive, and try to get something done. Opposed to sitting back and doing nothing just because you can't get it perfect. I am not trying to fix human nature here, I am only trying to guide it.

[Denominator]

If you're going to break it down beyond days, then you're going to have to change the hours that they are up.

We're posting 210 maps per month, which works out to 7 per day, but it's not actually 7 per day. It's more like 13 on Saturday and 4 on Monday-Wednesday.

Furthermore, even if we assume 7 per day, it's not one ever 3.5 hours. It's 5 between 4 and 7 and 2 scattered at other times, generally later at night.

So if you put maps up in order, whichever was posted last on a Saturday would stay up longer than the first one to go up.

Then if you have hours, like you said the hours of 12AM-6AM would suck. Most users are online in the evening, so the primetime would be 12PM-6PM. How do you determine which maps get this? Now you have an unequal system on something that should be totally equal.

[Null Parameter]

Now you have an unequal system on something that should be totally equal.
Not to mention nearly impossible to make programmatically efficient. That kind of scheduling would be a nightmare. I'll already have to make drastic changes to do many of these suggestions, but this is just getting crazy.

[PsychoBucket]

If you're going to break it down beyond days, then you're going to have to change the hours that they are up.

We're posting 210 maps per month, which works out to 7 per day, but it's not actually 7 per day. It's more like 13 on Saturday and 4 on Monday-Wednesday.

Furthermore, even if we assume 7 per day, it's not one ever 3.5 hours. It's 5 between 4 and 7 and 2 scattered at other times, generally later at night.

So if you put maps up in order, whichever was posted last on a Saturday would stay up longer than the first one to go up.

Then if you have hours, like you said the hours of 12AM-6AM would suck. Most users are online in the evening, so the primetime would be 12PM-6PM. How do you determine which maps get this? Now you have an unequal system on something that should be totally equal.

Well if we did 12 hours we could split it up so it divides the "Primetime" equally (I think it would be more like 4-10pm). I don't think it needs to be totally equal. As long as each map gets a decent amount of time, I think it would be fine.


So if you put maps up in order, whichever was posted last on a Saturday would stay up longer than the first one to go up.

That is how it is now. Doing this would only make sure the earliest maps on saturday got at least 12 hours.

Edit:
Not to mention nearly impossible to make programmatically efficient. That kind of scheduling would be a nightmare. I'll already have to make drastic changes to do many of these suggestions, but this is just getting crazy.
I didn't see that. So basically, noting in this thread is even possible?

[Null Parameter]

I didn't see that. So basically, noting in this thread is even possible?
No, almost anything is possible. But the more complex it gets the more time it will take which really takes away from the effect of the fix as well as taking away from anything else I have been working on (i.e. Map Search Features, Gametype Search, etc.).

[GodlyPerfection]

Before we actually try to implement all of these things I am very curious as to how the underdog feature mixed with the removal of the map forum structure would work. Can we see if that fixes maps being unnoticed before we try to do anything too complex? Let's take things one step at a time... cuz I think the Underdog status will help a lot with the unnoticed map problem. If it still feels like it is overflowing we can come back and try to rejuvenate some of these ideas. And like Null said he is busy working on improving a lot of the features so let's take our time here and think things through a bit.

I do think that exposure to the map search frequently will help people find maps that they haven't found before. If they get bored they can start doing crazy sorts and stuff just to see what they find. And anyone who is interested in furthering the community can help remove Underdog status from maps... and if we feel later that a minimum of 5 replies is too little for recognition then we can up it later... But the way that this community has been moderating map posts I think 5 constructive reviews is really very useful. And eventually people will also learn not to post on their map until they loose underdog status cuz if they post on their map all it does is lessen their recognition time...

Some of the ideas are interesting so far, but as Null pointed out, very complex. Keep the ideas coming, but let's make this a slow and strong decision because this is what is going to allow us to cope with a bigger user base like Forgehub has. If we can figure out what they couldn't then our site will grow even stronger... but let's not waste time and push for a feature too soon. It will need LOTS of thought put into it.

Big changes like these make or break a site and I feel that a lot of the ideas are thrown in without too much thought on pros/cons of the system. Psycho you are doing a great job, but I mean like other suggestions.

lol now as for the showing maps after someone posts a map. I definitely agree that it should come from the same section that that person posted in, either that or grab from all different sections not just one.