Conquest in Reach Matchmaking

[GodlyPerfection]

For those who don't know what Conquest (http://www.bungie.net/Online/Halo3UserContentDetails.aspx?h3fileid=69304085) is, now is a good time to learn about it. Conquest is a teamwork focused linear territories gametype that works on a reverse tug-of-war style of gameplay. It is one of, if not, the most popular gametypes out there in the forging/custom game world. This is one of the few gametypes that has a chance at getting into matchmaking. Whether or not you enjoy playing Conquest I think we should all try to get it into matchmaking, because if we can get Conquest into matchmaking it will open the door for ALL other custom gametypes by the community. I need your help my fellow XForgers. I need you to help me forge, playtest, and perfect maps and the Conquest gametype in Halo: Reach. My post today on my blog discusses this matter a bit further if you are interested. There you can signup to be one of the forgers or one of the playtesters or both. Who knows... maybe you can have one of your maps in matchmaking if this community wide effort succeeds. Spread the word my friends. This could be the beginning of community gametypes in matchmaking.

Conquest in Reach Matchmaking (http://www.reachingperfection.com/2010/08/conquest-in-reach-matchmaking.html)

Btw, the newest version alone of Conquest has over 38K worth of downloads... that is not including the previous 3 versions from the past. The new one is only about a year old.

[Null Parameter]

This is one of the few gametypes that has a chance at getting into matchmaking.
I don't understand this, at all. They are planning on having an entire Community Based Playlist; I think a lot of great gametypes will have a chance to get into matchmaking.

[Time Glitch]

What he means, Null, is that at this point in time, Conquest is one of the most well-known gametypes in the Forge community. If we can get THAT in, then it opens up the gates for more community variants.

And that alone will be a challenge. I know we all have hopes that we'll see a community playlist full of Conquest and Asset and all these cool gametypes that have popped out of the community, but I think Bungie has a different definition of "Community Playlist" and "Custom Content".

My guess is this "Community Playlist" will consist of purely competitive maps that people have made, containing no custom gametypes whatsoever. Bungie doesn't even realize that other gametypes exist most of the time, and the ones they DO think exist, are stuff like Sumo Wrestling and Pit of Joy; Old archaic gametypes that fell out of style years ago.

Pushing to get something straight from the community into matchmaking will be a tough road, but it has to happen if we want to finally get a direct Bungie-to-Community connection. And our foot-in-the-door is Conquest.

[GodlyPerfection]

Do you really think that or do you just want to believe that? Remember what they told us about Bungie Favorites? Now look what it has become and it didn't even start out good to begin with. Instead of hoping that Bungie does their part, I think we should try to take matters into our own hands. They've promised us things like this before and they have just fallen apart. Plus if anything it will take ages for one gametype to standout above the rest with a good set of maps to go with it. This is a way of pushing that effort and getting that set of maps early to get it in early. If we can do this with Conquest, it will set the example for future big gametypes like Agents and Asset.

[Null Parameter]

Hasn't the process to get Conquest into H3 Matchmaking (http://www.xforgery.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4773) been going on for almost a year now? What do you plan to do differently to catch Bungie's attention? Because the last I heard, GG has actually talked to people at Bungie about it, and it still hasn't made it in.

[MultiLockOn]

On top of what Null has said, I think it's the exact opposite of what you're thinking AZN. The community in Reach is going to be a huge jump, with so many new gametypes I think it will be even harder for Conquest to stand out. To be honest I think it may whither a bit; and shouldn't you at least wait 'till Reach drops so that you can see what to change in terms of guidelines and settings.

[RPAL]

Btw, the newest version alone of Conquest has over 38K worth of downloads... that is not including the previous 3 versions from the past. The new one is only about a year old.

It also got on Bungie Favorites more then once, and everything on Bungie Favorites gets loads of downloads, but that doesn't mean they play it.

[GodlyPerfection]

Hasn't the process to get Conquest into H3 Matchmaking (http://www.xforgery.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4773) been going on for almost a year now? What do you plan to do differently to catch Bungie's attention? Because the last I heard, GG has actually talked to people at Bungie about it, and it still hasn't made it in.

The effort to get Conquest in H3 MM was at a loss since Reach was in development. I'm feel that Bungie had a plan to try to incorporate community stuff in Reach and felt that pulling it off in H3 would be to no avail. And just because it didn't work in H3 doesn't mean that it won't in Reach. They are running off of two completely different file sharing setups.

On top of what Null has said, I think it's the exact opposite of what you're thinking AZN. The community in Reach is going to be a huge jump, with so many new gametypes I think it will be even harder for Conquest to stand out. To be honest I think it may whither a bit; and shouldn't you at least wait 'till Reach drops so that you can see what to change in terms of guidelines and settings.

Sure new gametypes are going to arise, but how long will it take for them to actual get footing in the community? How long will it take for them to get maps prepared and have the gametype fully understood and analyzed for MM? Conquest has already gotten a foothold ready to go. It has earned at least some sort of space in a majority of the forging community. That gives Conquest a head start. And it will whither a bit at first due to things being a fresh start and the first month being used as re-adjusting to the new environment and building a solid set of maps to go with it.

As for the guidelines and settings changing in Reach I'm not too worried about it. Because Conquest is built from a set the essence of a game idea. The point of it is to simulate the war feel of frontlines pushing back and forth against each other. As long as I keep that essence then it is still conquest. I've taken the time to figure out what armor abilities would work, what weapons would work, what settings are being changed, etc. I'm finishing up my analysis finally with the gametype settings that I am getting from Glory. With all that I have seen I will be able to keep the essence of Conquest, so I am ready to transition to Reach.

[Time Glitch]

Hasn't the process to get Conquest into H3 Matchmaking (http://www.xforgery.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4773) been going on for almost a year now? What do you plan to do differently to catch Bungie's attention? Because the last I heard, GG has actually talked to people at Bungie about it, and it still hasn't made it in.

I'd say that isn't any fault of the community, it's that Bungie hasn't opened up enough to the idea of taking ideas directly from the community that doesn't really line up with the basic Halo gameplay.

They've always seemed really reluctant to put anything out there from the community that doesn't stem from the basic Halo formula, and the only example I can really think of that breaks the mold is Grifball. The only reason that got in was because of Bungie's close ties to Rooster Teeth.

Conquest is the closest thing we have to a foot in the door. It's well-known, it's not super-complicated to understand, and it's fun (Well, most people think it's fun XD). It's basically our best-bet.

[DimmestBread]

The problem with conquest in reach is it will be similar to the default territories since it returned to how it was in halo 2. Bungie may say it isn't a big enough difference to be included in matchmaking(even though its linear and doesn't have the points adding up). Who knows though. Does anyone know if it is 100% possible to recreate it?

Another problem it may have is with the weapon damage and resistance changes. I don't know how much bungie likes that. I personally like the one that has default resistance and damage settings and I know many people who are the same opinion. Only the conquest fans who have played it a lot really like the changed traits (obviously thats not true for everyone).

[RightSideTheory]

I quite honestly feel like you're stealing GunngerGrunts thunder on this one AZN.

[GodlyPerfection]

The problem with conquest in reach is it will be similar to the default territories since it returned to how it was in halo 2. Bungie may say it isn't a big enough difference to be included in matchmaking(even though its linear and doesn't have the points adding up). Who knows though. Does anyone know if it is 100% possible to recreate it?

Another problem it may have is with the weapon damage and resistance changes. I don't know how much bungie likes that. I personally like the one that has default resistance and damage settings and I know many people who are the same opinion. Only the conquest fans who have played it a lot really like the changed traits (obviously thats not true for everyone).

I am seeing both sides of the coin in my analysis of Conquest. In H3's version the majority of each round seems to be just fluff because all that matters is the territory at the end. However that rush at the end is a great thing and very powerful in encouraging fun and making it a blast to play. In H2's style every second counts so the team that skillfully holds the center territory (and obviously the others) longest earns the win. However because of the points over time we end up loosing the last rush adrenaline effect.

As far as damage resistance goes, the main reason we put higher damage resistance is because in a regular Team Slayer game you only get shot by 1-2 people most of the time and die in a decent amount of time. However in Conquest you are being shot by 2-4 most of the time. At that point you almost have no time to strategize or even aim your shots. So we bumped up the damage resistance to give you that time to take cover if you needed to.

Now with the new weapon damage in Reach it takes slightly longer to kill someone (5 shots with both the DMR and Pistol is very nice). And we may not need to increase damage resistance too much. Especially since we can replace the sniper rifle with the focus rifle. We also increased damage resistance because with the sniper being 1 headshot it was too easy to dominate as an individual in Conquest and that wasn't the feel we were going for. Now we don't have to worry about that. Instead to reward people with good cover techniques I am most likely keeping the damage resistance, lowering melee damage a bit and setting shield recharge to fast. Something else I've been trying to analyze is the health system. I haven't quite put a solid decision on that quite yet


I quite honestly feel like you're stealing GunngerGrunts thunder on this one AZN.

Gunnergrunt's efforts were for H3. He did a great job, but it just didn't work. I am running a completely separate scheme and it is a new game for a fresh start. I haven't left gunnergrunt out. I have already talked to him about this on XBL. Gunnergrunt tried his best. Now I am going to try my best and hopefully with his help. I am not using anything that he did so I am not stealing any of his hard work that he put into it. Though I would love to use his signatures, they are rightfully his to control and do what he wants with them. In the end I am working with my vision for Conquest and molding it to what I feel makes a great game. I know what I'm striving for and it will help me work towards my goal.

[RightSideTheory]

Gunnergrunt's efforts were for H3. He did a great job, but it just didn't work. I am running a completely separate scheme and it is a new game for a fresh start. I haven't left gunnergrunt out. I have already talked to him about this on XBL. Gunnergrunt tried his best. Now I am going to try my best and hopefully with his help. I am not using anything that he did so I am not stealing any of his hard work that he put into it. Though I would love to use his signatures, they are rightfully his to control and do what he wants with them. In the end I am working with my vision for Conquest and molding it to what I feel makes a great game. I know what I'm striving for and it will help me work towards my goal.

Well, why wouldn't you let Gunner continue to do what he was doing, except for Reach's Matchmaking, and fully support that? It would be the same effort on your part, and probably more successful. He's done an excellent job so far, and he has a very positive stance in the halo forge community, while you have the exact opposite of that.

[RPAL]

As far as damage resistance goes, the main reason we put higher damage resistance is because in a regular Team Slayer game you only get shot by 1-2 people most of the time and die in a decent amount of time. However in Conquest you are being shot by 2-4 most of the time. At that point you almost have no time to strategize or even aim your shots. So we bumped up the damage resistance to give you that time to take cover if you needed to.

Now with the new weapon damage in Reach it takes slightly longer to kill someone (5 shots with both the DMR and Pistol is very nice). And we may not need to increase damage resistance too much. Especially since we can replace the sniper rifle with the focus rifle. We also increased damage resistance because with the sniper being 1 headshot it was too easy to dominate as an individual in Conquest and that wasn't the feel we were going for. Now we don't have to worry about that. Instead to reward people with good cover techniques I am most likely keeping the damage resistance, lowering melee damage a bit and setting shield recharge to fast. Something else I've been trying to analyze is the health system. I haven't quite put a solid decision on that quite yet


Who cares if the sniper takes 1 headshot, making it more is unbalancing the weapon. I have much more fun using 4 shots in a sniper and getting 3-4 kills then using duel weapons to take down one person faster then using a sniper.

Its not overpowering if both sides have the same weapon with the same size clip and the same respawn time. Its skill if someone rapes the other team with their power weapon, which is what the game is about. I honestly wont see myself playing Conquest in Reach if it strays to far away from Conquest V3, because I know a lot of people that say that one was the best, and i agree.

[Tim]

I'm not going to get into the whole politics of getting conquest in matchmaking, but I will have to agree with both Null and Multi (who ACTUALLY agree with one another! Someone call the cops!). I'm not saying conquest will have no chance, but there's going to be new and exciting gametypes on the horizon that could take the Reach community by storm. I just don't see conquest having a long life in the Reach community as you think it's going to have. To me, it will be labeled as a fad much like some of the popular gametypes of Halo 3. It will have strong support for a couple months, then it will fade away. This is the current problem we have with XFOG's and getting new XFOG's in. The thing Bungie is looking for is "Will the game still be just as fun playing it the 2,000th time as it was the first time?" I can't say Conquest in Reach will fit in that category.

Now granted, I plan to make a Carceral (a.k.a Messiah) remake in Reach, since a lot of people enjoyed that map in Halo 3. However, this will be the only remake I'm doing, the only map that's not going to be an XF exclusive, and the only map that will support conquest. I plan on doing new and interesting projects that couldn't be realized in Halo 3, and they will be exclusive to XForgery. I feel that if one my maps do take off, the community at B.net will know thanks to the new tagging system that will be implemented in Reach. I no longer have to go through several forging websites just to get my map across the community.

I'm not here to discourage you in your quest to make conquest mainstream, I just don't see it happening in my perspective. Even if you successfully reach that point, I just don't see it having the legs to last long term. Will conquest still be as popular in 2012 than it was in Reach's launch? There's a good chance that answer is no. Who knows, I could very well be wrong and Conquest could be the most popular Reach gametype ever!

Regardless of the potential outcome, I wish you and Gunnergrunt the best of luck in your future endeavors.

[Time Glitch]

Well there's a big difference between the Conquest we see currently (Which I'm not a huge fan of) and the Conquest that we'll see in Reach.

Reach is a time where we look back on our old games and say "What does this new engine enable me to do with this that I couldn't, or didn't think of, before?", not "Okay lets remake this exactly the way it was because that's how it was in Halo 3".

That's the approach I'm taking with ALL of my old games that I'll be porting into Reach. They won't be the exact same thing we all played back in the days of Halo 3. My mission is to make them feel fresh and new again, while keeping to their roots.

I'm sure Godly has the same philosophy when it comes to Conquest.

[GodlyPerfection]

Well, why wouldn't you let Gunner continue to do what he was doing, except for Reach's Matchmaking, and fully support that? It would be the same effort on your part, and probably more successful. He's done an excellent job so far, and he has a very positive stance in the halo forge community, while you have the exact opposite of that.

Because he is getting better than that and will continue doing what he's doing if he wants to. And I agree he has done an amazing job so far and has been the single most influential person for the Conquest setup other than obviously the creator. I'm not just leaving him out to dry. I just haven't been able to get in touch with him for the past 2 weeks.

Who cares if the sniper takes 1 headshot, making it more is unbalancing the weapon. I have much more fun using 4 shots in a sniper and getting 3-4 kills then using duel weapons to take down one person faster then using a sniper.

Its not overpowering if both sides have the same weapon with the same size clip and the same respawn time. Its skill if someone rapes the other team with their power weapon, which is what the game is about. I honestly wont see myself playing Conquest in Reach if it strays to far away from Conquest V3, because I know a lot of people that say that one was the best, and i agree.

The reason the sniper taking one headshot was a problem was because it allowed a single player to handle a whole team by himself rather than rely on his teammates for back up. The snipers are still power weapons, but they are now power weapons that require your team as backup. And also because Conquest is a linear gametype that makes a one headshot sniper even more powerful because he knows EXACTLY where the opponent is going to be. A good sniper can completely dominate the other team by himself. He would be what we called Overpowered in video games. And overpowered is a no no. The point of Conquest is to work as a team and we did our best to eliminate the lone wolf style and hence we succeeded. In return we lost the lone wolf style players. It was a fair loss as now we have a more team oriented game.

Anyways with the release of Halo Reach Conquest is actually heading back down towards Conquest v3 with more normal damage. The only thing that is really changing is less melee damage. Normal damage is back because now we can replace the human sniper with the focus rifle (to remove the one man domination factor) and DMRs and Pistols take 5 shots to kill instead of 4 meaning that combat is naturally longer in reach anyways. So if anything you will probably like Reach's version much more. Also faster shield recharge is being introduced to keep you in the fray more often as long as you are tactical about taking cover.

I'm not going to get into the whole politics of getting conquest in matchmaking, but I will have to agree with both Null and Multi (who ACTUALLY agree with one another! Someone call the cops!). I'm not saying conquest will have no chance, but there's going to be new and exciting gametypes on the horizon that could take the Reach community by storm. I just don't see conquest having a long life in the Reach community as you think it's going to have. To me, it will be labeled as a fad much like some of the popular gametypes of Halo 3. It will have strong support for a couple months, then it will fade away. This is the current problem we have with XFOG's and getting new XFOG's in. The thing Bungie is looking for is "Will the game still be just as fun playing it the 2,000th time as it was the first time?" I can't say Conquest in Reach will fit in that category.

Now granted, I plan to make a Carceral (a.k.a Messiah) remake in Reach, since a lot of people enjoyed that map in Halo 3. However, this will be the only remake I'm doing, the only map that's not going to be an XF exclusive, and the only map that will support conquest. I plan on doing new and interesting projects that couldn't be realized in Halo 3, and they will be exclusive to XForgery. I feel that if one my maps do take off, the community at B.net will know thanks to the new tagging system that will be implemented in Reach. I no longer have to go through several forging websites just to get my map across the community.

I'm not here to discourage you in your quest to make conquest mainstream, I just don't see it happening in my perspective. Even if you successfully reach that point, I just don't see it having the legs to last long term. Will conquest still be as popular in 2012 than it was in Reach's launch? There's a good chance that answer is no. Who knows, I could very well be wrong and Conquest could be the most popular Reach gametype ever!

Regardless of the potential outcome, I wish you and Gunnergrunt the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Well thank you for the very neutral stance Tim it is much appreciated. I hope that things take off with Conquest, but I'm not relying on it. I have much bigger plans. Conquest is just something that has worked in Halo 3 so I have faith that it will do decent in Reach. And as far as the tagging system goes, I have not been fully convinced that it will be amazing quite yet. i still think it will be abused and will not be a good reading of what's actually popular in the community. Anyways, the new gametypes still have to build their foothold in Reach... conquest has a nice little foothold now we just have to see if we built it sturdy enough to climb on. Also I look forward to the reincarnation of Carceral. I was going to ask you if you were going to remake it, but there is my answer... lol. And thank you for the support Tim.

Well there's a big difference between the Conquest we see currently (Which I'm not a huge fan of) and the Conquest that we'll see in Reach.

Reach is a time where we look back on our old games and say "What does this new engine enable me to do with this that I couldn't, or didn't think of, before?", not "Okay lets remake this exactly the way it was because that's how it was in Halo 3".

That's the approach I'm taking with ALL of my old games that I'll be porting into Reach. They won't be the exact same thing we all played back in the days of Halo 3. My mission is to make them feel fresh and new again, while keeping to their roots.

I'm sure Godly has the same philosophy when it comes to Conquest.

Actually that is exactly how I was thinking, but there was no way I could have put it into those kind of words Glitch... thank you. Everything has a new chance and a new environment to flourish in and everything has a chance.

CIRM? That just sounds silly!



You told me what you had planned to do with the gametype, but you never really asked about taking control of the CIM efforts... I guess its your gametype so go ahead. Feel free to use all the signatures I made. I put them all in a thread around here somewhere.

I'm gonna keep working on H3's CIM. Maybe Shishka will be easier to work with once Reach is released.

Best of luck!

Well first of all good luck with Shiska cuz um... he was like fired a couple weeks back. And I have been trying to get in touch with you for the past 2 weeks while you have been on COD and Netflix. It is a pain to get in touch with you. Anyways, if you had answered any of my party requests you would know that I want to give co-designer of Conquest to you for Reach. You have been a great force for good in terms of Conquest and if I am to talk this thing with anyone it would be you. Followed by Bart lol... so if you are cool with me having author and then you modifying the gametype and saving it so that it has you as the modifier then we can continue forward with this. I've been trying to get in touch with you on the xbox to tell you in person but apparently that doesn't seem physically possible. So what do you say GG? Are you in or out?

[Shell]

I personally think they don't put Conquest and other gametypes like it into MatchMaking because, well, if you've never heard of it, you're not going to know what's going on. All the gametypes in Action Sack are pretty straightforward; as for Conquest and gametypes like it, the game isn't straightforward, and may make you have to strategize with randoms.

To be honest, though, I'd rather other community gametypes get into MatchMaking before this one does. I'd rather enjoy my time playing MatchMaking.

[GodlyPerfection]

I personally think they don't put Conquest and other gametypes like it into MatchMaking because, well, if you've never heard of it, you're not going to know what's going on. All the gametypes in Action Sack are pretty straightforward; as for Conquest and gametypes like it, the game isn't straightforward, and may make you have to strategize with randoms.

To be honest, though, I'd rather other community gametypes get into MatchMaking before this one does. I'd rather enjoy my time playing MatchMaking.

While I do think that it would be awesome to have certain other gametypes in matchmaking I don't think they have a very good chance quite yet. Right now conquest is our best bet. And in Reach there will be nothing complicated about Conquest at all. It will be all self explanatory. All you really need to know is that it takes 10 seconds to cap a territory. Everything else is pretty much taken care of. Spawning works automatically, damage resistance should be close to normal if not normal in Reach, etc. Probably one of the few things that will be different is the melee damage and the lack of assassinations. There is nothing complicated about it at all. Definitely one of the simplest gametypes I have ever had to explain.

[Shell]

While I do think that it would be awesome to have certain other gametypes in matchmaking I don't think they have a very good chance quite yet. Right now conquest is our best bet. And in Reach there will be nothing complicated about Conquest at all. It will be all self explanatory. All you really need to know is that it takes 10 seconds to cap a territory. Everything else is pretty much taken care of. Spawning works automatically, damage resistance should be close to normal if not normal in Reach, etc. Probably one of the few things that will be different is the melee damage and the lack of assassinations. There is nothing complicated about it at all. Definitely one of the simplest gametypes I have ever had to explain.

See, how was I to know that if I haven't play Conquest in Reach?

You were better off waiting before making this thread.

[Silver0range]

Shell, it would take them 1 or 2 kills to learn the differences from normal gametypes. Would you prevent SWAT from being let into matchmaking because you were worried people would be confused when they couldn't kill with bodyshots?

As for the strategy aspect of it, Conquest is about brute force. The only strategy I can think of is whether or not you will stop in the middle territory or press on further into enemy territory where you have the disadvantage. Considering that a lot of people who play with us tend to not even focus on this one, I don't see how playing with randoms will be such a bad thing. Not to mention, the game plays well either way.

But honestly, arguing about this won't change AZN's mind about anything, as I'm sure all of you know anyways... just choose whether or not you will support the venture if needed and move along. All you'll get otherwise is some wasted time reading his long-ass posts. I, personally, don't think it will make it and won't choose to support it, as I believe the majority of the gametype's popularity is based around a shitload of hype.

That being said it wouldn't be such a bad thing for it to have a chance to be played in the Custom Games playlist assuming Bungie isn't making it an Action Sack; the variety would be good. As long as it doesn't wind up being its own playlist, I wouldn't mind.

[RPAL]

Anyways with the release of Halo Reach Conquest is actually heading back down towards Conquest v3 with more normal damage. The only thing that is really changing is less melee damage. Normal damage is back because now we can replace the human sniper with the focus rifle (to remove the one man domination factor) and DMRs and Pistols take 5 shots to kill instead of 4 meaning that combat is naturally longer in reach anyways. So if anything you will probably like Reach's version much more. Also faster shield recharge is being introduced to keep you in the fray more often as long as you are tactical about taking cover.


Whatever i don't like i will fix in my own gametype version and not play the real version. Taking out the human sniper is bull, its the favorable gun in the game and shouldn't be one of the weapons you "can't" use in Conquest.

The only way you can stop someone from making a conquest map with the human sniper in it is if the gametype settings allow you to select what weapons can't be used in the game, thus not spawning even on a map that has them. If not, then leaving the default shield settings, or tweeking them will change all weapons.